ProxmoxVE will change LICENCE?

Discussion in 'Proxmox VE: Installation and configuration' started by badji, Aug 19, 2013.

  1. jdw

    jdw Member
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    That is one possibility, but since they are not communicating about this there will be no way to know for sure what upgrade paths they will provide until 3.2 comes out. Doing a "complete reinstall" in a cluster is not that big of a deal though, unless it's one of the many releases where live migration doesn't work between the old and new version. Time will tell. If you have to make a decision today, assume the worst.

    Good news: 10 servers with 2 cpus each is 20 CPUs at 50 EUR each is 1000 EUR a year. ($1337 today. Not making that up.)

    Bad news: They charge 20% VAT even to US customers. So it's 1200 EUR a year. ($1605 today.)

    Probably you accidentally doubled twice.

    By comparison, a VMware support and subscription package starts at $273 per socket and goes right on up to $874.

    If a 10-blade chassis fully loaded is only worth $300 total it's probably time to upgrade. You must spend at least that much on electricity for it each year. :)

    They definitely do volume discounts, but I am not sure if 20 sockets is enough or if they will do it off the new community price. You would have to ask them ( office@proxmox.com ).
     
  2. jdw

    jdw Member
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    Actually I understand that just fine. But the existence of bug fixes between versions does not mean that Proxmox owes anybody free binary versions of those outside their usual release schedule.

    Ohh.... you're referring to an AGPL where the "A" stands for "Alternate Reality." Sorry, I misunderstood.
     
    #62 jdw, Aug 22, 2013
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2013
  3. Ein

    Ein New Member

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    Read the license.

    And their definition of Corresponding Source is:

    The master branch of the Git repo is not the corresponding source to a specific version.

    Of course, I have a feeling you could obtain the corresponding source by looking at the versions of packages in the enterprise repo. I suspect an enterprise user could just look up the versions, go to the Git repo, grab the correct version (hopefully they don't try doing some bullshit like stripping tags out), and then build the packages themselves. They must be able to build the packages at those specific versions (Proxmox cannot withhold any build system information) - that part was added in the third version of the GPL. They are also allowed to convey those packages to anyone else. So one enterprise user could set up a repo with all the "stable" versions of packages, and as long as they build the packages themselves, they're allowed to convey them using the repo to the public.

    There's a clause in the subscriber agreement that forbids doing this, but I highly doubt it would hold up in any court, given the presence of the GPL.

    (As a side-note, you could also buy a single license, grab the enterprise versions of packages, and then re-build the packages to install on as many nodes as you want.)
     
  4. oakleeman

    oakleeman New Member

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    I got $1340 for 10 blades not counting the vat you mentioned. The $3k number I mentioned is the cost of a new blade. Thankfully our electricity is included in our rent.

    Been thinking about looking into their reseller program.
     
  5. jdw

    jdw Member
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    Read a dictionary. "You" means you, not Proxmox.
     
  6. FinnTux

    FinnTux Member

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    I'd also would like to know how can I get a specific version out of git? Since there are no src packages, checking out from git is the only option. If I buy subscription how can I get source of the exact version of a package? Naturally thats what I want, not a master version which already has had several commits.
     
  7. jdw

    jdw Member
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    Yes, the git repository does seem a little short in the branches & tags department. For the most part it looks like you have to find the commit that says "bump version to 3.1-2" or similar.

    E.g. for pve-manager:

    Code:
    $ git log
    commit e1f08ccd79752801b92018706f8d9ba63ad2d181
    Author: Dietmar Maurer <dietmar@proxmox.com>
    Date:   Fri Aug 16 13:08:33 2013 +0200
    
    
        bump version to 3.1-3
    
    
    commit dd28cbbd1b632a700f924c270f97fc1fcf51e031
    Author: Dietmar Maurer <dietmar@proxmox.com>
    Date:   Fri Aug 16 13:05:40 2013 +0200
    
    
        add favicon.ico
    
    
    commit 6d2c0924f7cb2fda0dbc5b5a4fc0964fe248dd6c
    Author: Dietmar Maurer <dietmar@proxmox.com>
    Date:   Fri Aug 16 10:19:24 2013 +0200
    
    
        display subscription status after login
    
    
    commit 9b1dd4e829e97acafcf3b85b54f473da7fe962fb
    Author: Dietmar Maurer <dietmar@proxmox.com>
    Date:   Fri Aug 16 09:27:16 2013 +0200
    
    
        use Refresh instead of Update
        
        Because 'Update' only makes sense for users knowing apt-get
        command line tool.
    
    
    commit e00f035e8274bf73c98bd38c2f71c45f1330f756
    Author: Dietmar Maurer <dietmar@proxmox.com>
    Date:   Fri Aug 16 09:22:02 2013 +0200
    
    
        try to guess changelog url fro security updates
        
        Work for some packages, but not for all security updates. Seems
        Debian security team does not upload changelogs.
    
    
    commit 2a634cd6fa198d9e945d89c66e3463f518b002fd
    Author: Dietmar Maurer <dietmar@proxmox.com>
    Date:   Fri Aug 16 06:16:11 2013 +0200
    
    
        fix perl dependency, bump version to 3.1-2
    
    
    commit e5d998a63bfa85da27eae8a5764199901822bac8
    Author: Dietmar Maurer <dietmar@proxmox.com>
    Date:   Wed Aug 14 07:56:33 2013 +0200
    
    $ git checkout 2a634cd6fa198d9e945d89c66e3463f518b002fd .
    $ more defines.mk 
    RELEASE=3.1
    
    
    VERSION=3.1
    PACKAGE=pve-manager
    PACKAGERELEASE=2
    
    
    BINDIR=${DESTDIR}/usr/bin
    PERLLIBDIR=${DESTDIR}/usr/share/perl5
    MAN1DIR=${DESTDIR}/usr/share/man/man1
    CRONDAILYDIR=${DESTDIR}/etc/cron.daily
    INITDBINDIR=${DESTDIR}/etc/init.d
    HARADIR=${DESTDIR}/usr/share/cluster
    DOCDIR=${DESTDIR}/usr/share/doc/${PACKAGE}
    PODDIR=${DESTDIR}/usr/share/doc/${PACKAGE}/pod
    WWWBASEDIR=${DESTDIR}/usr/share/${PACKAGE}
    WWWROOTDIR=${WWWBASEDIR}/root
    WWWIMAGEDIR=${WWWBASEDIR}/images
    WWWEXT4DIR=${WWWBASEDIR}/ext4
    WWWCSSDIR=${WWWBASEDIR}/css
    
    (Couldn't actually build it as I happened to check it out on a FreeBSD machine.)
     
  8. FinnTux

    FinnTux Member

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    Let's say I have version 3.1-2 running and after 6 months I want to have the source. Do I get snapshot of that "bump" or the version before next version increase commit? Aren't all git snapshots at version 3.1-2 between commits 3.1-2 and 3.1-3 (or 3.2 or whatever the next version is)?
     
    #68 FinnTux, Aug 22, 2013
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2013
  9. Raymond Burns

    Raymond Burns Member

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    Proxmox is still free.
    Download and install 3.1, it's free. The only thing that is paid is support on an enterprise level, including updates (it seems). This is almost exactly what Xen OpenSource is doing. You get everything in Xen except for updates and support. This is the same model. So why would you think it is not free?
     
  10. jdw

    jdw Member
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    Checking out the git repository gives you the whole history of the project. You can build it from the current sources or any point in the past. There are no "snapshots" per se.

    This setup is a little weird, but since most of it seems done by one guy (Dietmar) it is probably manageable for him.

    This is also pretty far off topic. They have a developer mailing list which might be a better venue for further inquiries on this topic.
     
  11. FinnTux

    FinnTux Member

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    I guess nobody is denying Proxmox is free. Biggest problem here is the new model where people don't know what the new non-enterprise repo is like. People are happily running promox and suddenly, without warning they are forced to make a decision between paying for support or using possibly unstable packages on their servers. Even obtaining the correct source is unclear (for paying customers).
     
  12. FinnTux

    FinnTux Member

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    I was talking about the "snapshot" link in git.proxmox.com where you can download tarred source package. And how can I tell the correct point for enterprise package x.y-z? "bump" commit seems to be logical choice but I want confirmation on that.


    Exactly and that is where proxmox staff needs to be more clear. Simple question: if I have enterprise package version x.y-z, how can I get source code of that exact version? Seems pretty simple to me to answer that if you're a developer.

    I guess more people are reading these forums than mailing list.
     
  13. Dragoon

    Dragoon Member

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    First off let me start by saying that the proxmox team has done a great job of adding features and supporting the product that you can't really compare to others, that said. No they didn't announce the changes the right way but its done so lets move on. 2 I believe there should be a test pve as well as a stable pve and then the enterprise pve with some tweaks and features that should be worth charging for the extra stuff that repo gives. 3 I would pay either a monthly, yearly or a one time licenses fee which will bring in enough income to keep the project running and not turn people away. Selling per core/cpu is not right as the more cores/cpus you get the software isn't changing much so why the charge. Just a suggestion from experience that clients have no issues paying for a monthly or yearly license for a product that has a good amount of features that the open source now test pve doesn't have but the the only difference is one is more stable than the other that is just not fair you need to charge for newer features not stability that should come with the product.
     
  14. tom

    tom Proxmox Staff Member
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    No one outside the EU needs to pay VAT, also if you are inside EU and you have a valid VAT ID you also do not have to pay VAT.
     
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    #74 tom, Aug 22, 2013
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2013
  15. jdw

    jdw Member
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    At what point in the checkout process does the VAT go away?
     
  16. pfoo

    pfoo New Member

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    free for unstable/testing packages (as far as it is announced).

    For now, with this new paying model, when someone (who is paying licences for their stable/production environement) has to build a test node in order to try something, they have to pay for new licences in order to make sure that the testing environement has the exact same software that the production environement is going to have.

    Having to pay for stable and community support is a community-killing-feature. vmware offers free version of their *stable* software. The free esxi is missing "advanced" features, no support, but *is* stable and patched.
    How can someone promote proxmox instead of esxi (which I have been doing for years now) when you cannot even try a stable version ?
     
  17. tom

    tom Proxmox Staff Member
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    As soon as the shop knows your address. If you have further questions or problems with purchase, please contact our sales team on http://shop.maurer-it.com/
     
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  18. aderumier

    aderumier Member

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    The wiki say:
    " Its not recommended to run on production servers as these packages are not always heavily tested and validated"

    That doesn't mean that the packages are unstable and not tested !
    It's only mean that packages are tested but less time.
     
  19. pfoo

    pfoo New Member

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    I asked this to proxmox staff earlier in this thread, and had no response.
    I'm therefore considering that the free pve repo is the new pvetest. Testing is testing.
    I'll be glad if proxmox staff would clarify this point.
     
    #79 pfoo, Aug 22, 2013
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2013
  20. dietmar

    dietmar Proxmox Staff Member
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    We always run through the whole internal testing process, so those packages are quite stable.
     
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