ProxmoxVE will change LICENCE?

[jdw]

If I were to now upgrade our infrastructure to 3.1 via either apt-get or via their process I wouldn't be able to upgrade to future versions without either paying for support for each blade or downloading the ISO and doing a complete re-install? And if I were to run apt-get I would get "beta" updates but not the latest stable version?

That is one possibility, but since they are not communicating about this there will be no way to know for sure what upgrade paths they will provide until 3.2 comes out. Doing a "complete reinstall" in a cluster is not that big of a deal though, unless it's one of the many releases where live migration doesn't work between the old and new version. Time will tell. If you have to make a decision today, assume the worst.

On a side-note, I'm in the US and it looks like the basic support would cost around $67 per socket, or around $134 per blade annually? This seems funny since our blades are only worth around $300 apiece but would cost $3000 apiece to upgrade.

Good news: 10 servers with 2 cpus each is 20 CPUs at 50 EUR each is 1000 EUR a year. ($1337 today. Not making that up.)

Bad news: They charge 20% VAT even to US customers. So it's 1200 EUR a year. ($1605 today.)

Probably you accidentally doubled twice.

By comparison, a VMware support and subscription package starts at $273 per socket and goes right on up to $874.

If a 10-blade chassis fully loaded is only worth $300 total it's probably time to upgrade. You must spend at least that much on electricity for it each year.

Maybe they should implement a sliding scale, 1-10 total sockets is $X/socket, 11-100 totals sockets is $Y/socket, etc.

They definitely do volume discounts, but I am not sure if 20 sockets is enough or if they will do it off the new community price. You would have to ask them ( office@proxmox.com ).

 

[jdw]

I don't think you understand how stable branches work.

Actually I understand that just fine. But the existence of bug fixes between versions does not mean that Proxmox owes anybody free binary versions of those outside their usual release schedule.

Actually, Git access itself is not adequate. Anybody who has received the binaries must be able to access the exact source used to build those binaries, like a deb-src package, or (at minimum) a Git tag that they can take to the repo to get the right version out. Offering the Git repo is close, but not enough to satisfy the requirements of their license. They must relicense future code to allow them to keep what they're doing, or they must release the exact source used to build those packages (the specific versions in the enterprise repo).

Ohh.... you're referring to an AGPL where the "A" stands for "Alternate Reality." Sorry, I misunderstood.

 

[Ein]

Read the license.

You may convey a covered work in object code form under the terms of sections 4 and 5, provided that you also convey the machine-readable Corresponding Source under the terms of this License, in one of these ways:

And their definition of Corresponding Source is:

The "Corresponding Source" for a work in object code form means all the source code needed to generate, install, and (for an executable work) run the object code and to modify the work, including scripts to control those activities.

The master branch of the Git repo is not the corresponding source to a specific version.

Of course, I have a feeling you could obtain the corresponding source by looking at the versions of packages in the enterprise repo. I suspect an enterprise user could just look up the versions, go to the Git repo, grab the correct version (hopefully they don't try doing some bullshit like stripping tags out), and then build the packages themselves. They must be able to build the packages at those specific versions (Proxmox cannot withhold any build system information) - that part was added in the third version of the GPL. They are also allowed to convey those packages to anyone else. So one enterprise user could set up a repo with all the "stable" versions of packages, and as long as they build the packages themselves, they're allowed to convey them using the repo to the public.

There's a clause in the subscriber agreement that forbids doing this, but I highly doubt it would hold up in any court, given the presence of the GPL.

(As a side-note, you could also buy a single license, grab the enterprise versions of packages, and then re-build the packages to install on as many nodes as you want.)

 

[oakleeman]

I got $1340 for 10 blades not counting the vat you mentioned. The $3k number I mentioned is the cost of a new blade. Thankfully our electricity is included in our rent.

Been thinking about looking into their reseller program.

 

[jdw]

Read the license.

Read a dictionary. "You" means you, not Proxmox.

 

[FinnTux]

I'd also would like to know how can I get a specific version out of git? Since there are no src packages, checking out from git is the only option. If I buy subscription how can I get source of the exact version of a package? Naturally thats what I want, not a master version which already has had several commits.

 

[jdw]

I'd also would like to know how can I get a specific version out of git? Since there are no src packages, checking out from git is the only option. If I buy subscription how can I get source of the exact version of a package? Naturally thats what I want, not a master version which already has had several commits.

Yes, the git repository does seem a little short in the branches & tags department. For the most part it looks like you have to find the commit that says "bump version to 3.1-2" or similar.

E.g. for pve-manager:

$ git log
commit e1f08ccd79752801b92018706f8d9ba63ad2d181
Author: Dietmar Maurer <dietmar@proxmox.com>
Date:   Fri Aug 16 13:08:33 2013 +0200


    bump version to 3.1-3


commit dd28cbbd1b632a700f924c270f97fc1fcf51e031
Author: Dietmar Maurer <dietmar@proxmox.com>
Date:   Fri Aug 16 13:05:40 2013 +0200


    add favicon.ico


commit 6d2c0924f7cb2fda0dbc5b5a4fc0964fe248dd6c
Author: Dietmar Maurer <dietmar@proxmox.com>
Date:   Fri Aug 16 10:19:24 2013 +0200


    display subscription status after login


commit 9b1dd4e829e97acafcf3b85b54f473da7fe962fb
Author: Dietmar Maurer <dietmar@proxmox.com>
Date:   Fri Aug 16 09:27:16 2013 +0200


    use Refresh instead of Update
    
    Because 'Update' only makes sense for users knowing apt-get
    command line tool.


commit e00f035e8274bf73c98bd38c2f71c45f1330f756
Author: Dietmar Maurer <dietmar@proxmox.com>
Date:   Fri Aug 16 09:22:02 2013 +0200


    try to guess changelog url fro security updates
    
    Work for some packages, but not for all security updates. Seems
    Debian security team does not upload changelogs.


commit 2a634cd6fa198d9e945d89c66e3463f518b002fd
Author: Dietmar Maurer <dietmar@proxmox.com>
Date:   Fri Aug 16 06:16:11 2013 +0200


    fix perl dependency, bump version to 3.1-2


commit e5d998a63bfa85da27eae8a5764199901822bac8
Author: Dietmar Maurer <dietmar@proxmox.com>
Date:   Wed Aug 14 07:56:33 2013 +0200

$ git checkout 2a634cd6fa198d9e945d89c66e3463f518b002fd .
$ more defines.mk 
RELEASE=3.1


VERSION=3.1
PACKAGE=pve-manager
PACKAGERELEASE=2


BINDIR=${DESTDIR}/usr/bin
PERLLIBDIR=${DESTDIR}/usr/share/perl5
MAN1DIR=${DESTDIR}/usr/share/man/man1
CRONDAILYDIR=${DESTDIR}/etc/cron.daily
INITDBINDIR=${DESTDIR}/etc/init.d
HARADIR=${DESTDIR}/usr/share/cluster
DOCDIR=${DESTDIR}/usr/share/doc/${PACKAGE}
PODDIR=${DESTDIR}/usr/share/doc/${PACKAGE}/pod
WWWBASEDIR=${DESTDIR}/usr/share/${PACKAGE}
WWWROOTDIR=${WWWBASEDIR}/root
WWWIMAGEDIR=${WWWBASEDIR}/images
WWWEXT4DIR=${WWWBASEDIR}/ext4
WWWCSSDIR=${WWWBASEDIR}/css

(Couldn't actually build it as I happened to check it out on a FreeBSD machine.)

 

[FinnTux]

Yes, the git repository does seem a little short in the branches & tags department. For the most part it looks like you have to find the commit that says "bump version to 3.1-2" or similar.

Let's say I have version 3.1-2 running and after 6 months I want to have the source. Do I get snapshot of that "bump" or the version before next version increase commit? Aren't all git snapshots at version 3.1-2 between commits 3.1-2 and 3.1-3 (or 3.2 or whatever the next version is)?

 

[Raymond Burns]

Proxmox is still free.
Download and install 3.1, it's free. The only thing that is paid is support on an enterprise level, including updates (it seems). This is almost exactly what Xen OpenSource is doing. You get everything in Xen except for updates and support. This is the same model. So why would you think it is not free?

 

[jdw]

Let's say I have version 3.1-2 running and after 6 months I want to have the source. Do I get snapshot of that "bump" or the version before next version increase commit? Aren't all git snapshots at version 3.1-2 between commits 3.1-2 and 3.1-3 (or 3.2 or whatever the next version is)?

Checking out the git repository gives you the whole history of the project. You can build it from the current sources or any point in the past. There are no "snapshots" per se.

This setup is a little weird, but since most of it seems done by one guy (Dietmar) it is probably manageable for him.

This is also pretty far off topic. They have a developer mailing list which might be a better venue for further inquiries on this topic.

 

[FinnTux]

Proxmox is still free.
Download and install 3.1, it's free. The only thing that is paid is support on an enterprise level, including updates (it seems). This is almost exactly what Xen OpenSource is doing. You get everything in Xen except for updates and support. This is the same model. So why would you think it is not free?

I guess nobody is denying Proxmox is free. Biggest problem here is the new model where people don't know what the new non-enterprise repo is like. People are happily running promox and suddenly, without warning they are forced to make a decision between paying for support or using possibly unstable packages on their servers. Even obtaining the correct source is unclear (for paying customers).

 

[FinnTux]

Checking out the git repository gives you the whole history of the project. You can build it from the current sources or any point in the past. There are no "snapshots" per se.

I was talking about the "snapshot" link in git.proxmox.com where you can download tarred source package. And how can I tell the correct point for enterprise package x.y-z? "bump" commit seems to be logical choice but I want confirmation on that.

This setup is a little weird, but since most of it seems done by one guy (Dietmar) it is probably manageable for him.

Exactly and that is where proxmox staff needs to be more clear. Simple question: if I have enterprise package version x.y-z, how can I get source code of that exact version? Seems pretty simple to me to answer that if you're a developer.

This is also pretty far off topic. They have a developer mailing list which might be a better venue for further inquiries on this topic.

I guess more people are reading these forums than mailing list.

 

[Dragoon]

First off let me start by saying that the proxmox team has done a great job of adding features and supporting the product that you can't really compare to others, that said. No they didn't announce the changes the right way but its done so lets move on. 2 I believe there should be a test pve as well as a stable pve and then the enterprise pve with some tweaks and features that should be worth charging for the extra stuff that repo gives. 3 I would pay either a monthly, yearly or a one time licenses fee which will bring in enough income to keep the project running and not turn people away. Selling per core/cpu is not right as the more cores/cpus you get the software isn't changing much so why the charge. Just a suggestion from experience that clients have no issues paying for a monthly or yearly license for a product that has a good amount of features that the open source now test pve doesn't have but the the only difference is one is more stable than the other that is just not fair you need to charge for newer features not stability that should come with the product.

 

[tom]

...

However, it would be nice if people buying licenses from outside the EU could avoid paying VAT.

No one outside the EU needs to pay VAT, also if you are inside EU and you have a valid VAT ID you also do not have to pay VAT.

 

[jdw]

No one outside the EU needs to pay VAT, also if you are inside EU and you have a valid VAT ID you also do not have to pay VAT.

At what point in the checkout process does the VAT go away?

 

[pfoo]

Proxmox is still free.
Download and install 3.1, it's free. The only thing that is paid is support on an enterprise level, including updates (it seems). This is almost exactly what Xen OpenSource is doing. You get everything in Xen except for updates and support. This is the same model. So why would you think it is not free?

free for unstable/testing packages (as far as it is announced).

For now, with this new paying model, when someone (who is paying licences for their stable/production environement) has to build a test node in order to try something, they have to pay for new licences in order to make sure that the testing environement has the exact same software that the production environement is going to have.

Having to pay for stable and community support is a community-killing-feature. vmware offers free version of their *stable* software. The free esxi is missing "advanced" features, no support, but *is* stable and patched.
How can someone promote proxmox instead of esxi (which I have been doing for years now) when you cannot even try a stable version ?

 

[tom]

At what point in the checkout process does the VAT go away?

As soon as the shop knows your address. If you have further questions or problems with purchase, please contact our sales team on http://shop.maurer-it.com/

 

[aderumier]

free for unstable/testing packages (as far as it is announced).

The wiki say:
" Its not recommended to run on production servers as these packages are not always heavily tested and validated"

That doesn't mean that the packages are unstable and not tested !
It's only mean that packages are tested but less time.

 

[pfoo]

I asked this to proxmox staff earlier in this thread, and had no response.
I'm therefore considering that the free pve repo is the new pvetest. Testing is testing.
I'll be glad if proxmox staff would clarify this point.

 

[dietmar]

I asked this to proxmox staff earlier in this thread, and had no response.
I'm therefore considering that the free pve repo is the new pvetest. Testing is testing.
I'll be glad if proxmox staff would clarify this point.

We always run through the whole internal testing process, so those packages are quite stable.