Details about the new pve-no-subscripton repository

[mmenaz]

Personally, I find this thread a clear picture about why Free(dom) software has so many difficults. I'm a free software activist since LONG time, and I'm reviewing here "the same old story". People don't understand Free Software, don't value freedom, and just want "free lunch".
Also I find funny the argument "I don't give you money since you don't give me your time and software for free"
Pathetic (and very recurring in my experience) the one "I would donate a huge amount of money, but since you are asking me with a "nag screen"/"whatever I dislike and I dislike everything", I will not" (where you were you these long years Proxmox was asking for donations and there was no nag screen?) or "this is not Free(dom) software if I have to pay" (never heard about Richard Stallman, FSF and read the (A)GPL license?)
I'm looking forward all this people to found their own firm, fork Proxmox code and provide everyone the same level of code freedom, professional support and rich updated features Proxmox team has provided us so far. Of course, this time also for free(lunch)!
In the meantime I'm waiting (hope a matter of days) the last piece of hardware I've ordered to assemble my new home Proxmox server and get a subscription to help (= give something back) this fabulous and very true Free project.

 

[kobuki]

there will be different package versions in these repositories. that there are identical version in the moment is just because we started with these repos just yesterday. in future there will be different versions and we do not test if these causes problems. it could work but there is no test cases for this in our test labs.

I see, thanks. This is not going to work then, it's all or nothing in a cluster as it seems.

 

[dietmar]

I would be curious about this as well. I am running a similar environment as kobuki. All machines are at the same major version level but just different variants (example 3.0-05, 3.0-12, 3.0-23)

You should really try to run a cluster with all nodes on the same version. Using different versions will work in most cases, but the problem is that nobody can tests that (the number of possible combinations is to large to effectively test).

 

[dietmar]

I see, thanks. This is not going to work then, it's all or nothing in a cluster as it seems.

Well, I guess it is OK as long as you are aware of the potential problems.

 

[dietmar]

Would you pay them for a subscription after this? I certainly won't.

We finally understand that you would never give use anything. The good thing is that you are free to do that, so there is no real problem for me.

 

[dietmar]

You didn't understand anything at all. That "freedom" you mentioned is actually illegal in some jurisdictions

AGPLv3 is well known, and is recommended by the FSF. So what legal jurisdictions do you talk about exactly?

 

[jdw]

AGPLv3 is well known, and is recommended by the FSF. So what legal jurisdictions do you talk about exactly?

User's name is "nope nope nope," was created yesterday, and has done nothing but complain about nag screen. "Oh I'm a big guy!" "Oh I would have donated lots!" "Oh I will make Proxmox alternative!"

They do not give anything, but they will take take take: your software, your attention, your time.

Maybe the real strategy is to be such a troll it distracts you from productive endeavors?

 

[THe_ZiPMaN]

You're displaying a nag screen by default for everyone if they don't have a subscription. Your interpretation of "open source" is weird.

I suppose you NEVER read any open source license and never worked on any open source project, because you simply don't know what open source is.
I suggest you to read something about OS before making such inappropriated statements.

 

[nopenopenope]

AGPLv3 is well known, and is recommended by the FSF. So what legal jurisdictions do you talk about exactly?

I've checked it out and it's OK in the EU, the license from the installer is actually AGPL, so it's absolutely fine. It seems I was wrong about this and it's fine in EU. I'm sorry about confusing this.

It'd be nice if you found a way to let people donate and get the software without the nag screen without a monthly or yearly subscription. I'm serious about this, it's really a thing of principle. People who run a lot of systems will certainly need a subscription.

User's name is "nope nope nope," was created yesterday, and has done nothing but complain about nag screen. "Oh I'm a big guy!" "Oh I would have donated lots!" "Oh I will make Proxmox alternative!"

They do not give anything, but they will take take take: your software, your attention, your time.

Maybe the real strategy is to be such a troll it distracts you from productive endeavors?

I was serious about that and I'm not trolling, even though I was wrong.... I've checked and there was a ruling last year in the EU which allows this.

I picked that user name to avoid picking an user name. Thank you for making your opinion known.

 

[artisticab]

You should really try to run a cluster with all nodes on the same version. Using different versions will work in most cases, but the problem is that nobody can tests that (the number of possible combinations is to large to effectively test).

Dietmar, agreed and understand about testing...

With regards to Martin's primary post at the top of this thread; would the extra testing and bug fixes that go into the "pve-enterprise" repository, be eventually given and update the "pve-no-subscription" repository? Like on a time schedule (1, 2, or 3 months) after release?

For instance, the "pve-enterprise" repository gets the latest and greatest version, and the "pve-no-subscription" gets the prior version; thus it's always a version (or revision) behind in development?

 

[tom]

...
For instance, the "pve-enterprise" repository gets the latest and greatest version, and the "pve-no-subscription" gets the prior version; thus it's always a version (or revision) behind in development?

no, its different. read the first post of this thread again.

 

[artisticab]

no, its different. read the first post of this thread again.

So, is it the opposite then? The "pve-no-subscription" is on the cutting edge, and the "pve-enterprise" lags behind in development (because it hasn't been subjected to all the testing mentioned)? Bug fixes/enhancements are applied to the "pve-no-subscription" first, and then under go testing and then released in the "pve-enterprise"? Just trying to understand the difference between the two repositories (and if the code is identical between both).

 

[Raymond Burns]

I would like to encourage Proxmox.
I am a small, beginner when it comes to Virtual Environments. Similar to nopenopenope, I have plans to make big money for Proxmox because I am enthused. I have even discussed license purchasing through my job at a large Texas County IT Center. Although everything I am doing is well intentioned, I have yet been able to muster one cent towards my Proxmox endeavors. I appreciate Proxmox, and will continue to blast and support them as best I can. Whether that's the Spiceworks forum or free training for various non-profits I come across. You have to see it from their point. They have to make money, and if they don't "nag" you, who will pay. And those that pay, don't worry about being "nagged". Put it this way, we are on version 3.1 and most have yet to donate. Don't rise up and revolt now. You weren't going to change. You were just going to keep doing your apt-get updates.
Additionally, Proxmox continues to look out for us. Instead of pushing the free Proxmox version into a testing repository, they take on more work to analyze the free repository as they have been doing, and analyzing their paid support repository. Of which, the Enterprise repository is actually what makes money. I say, you guys do what needs to be done. You seem to have our best interest at heart, and that is very rare for developers that have potential to make $$$. Please don't let "some" forum people change your attitude or way of thinking.
Again, I appreciate you!!!
P.S. One day, I am going to find the right church or city IT team that will be solely Proxmox, and purchase the proper support. If I understand it right: a Quad Core hyperthreaded is 8 CPU. The monthly cost is per CPU and not per socket. So a 3 node cluster with dual socket motherboards will result in 48 CPU. At the standard support, I am correct in promoting $1592.16 per month, or $19,105.92 per year?

 

[kobuki]

P.S. One day, I am going to find the right church or city IT team that will be solely Proxmox, and purchase the proper support. If I understand it right: a Quad Core hyperthreaded is 8 CPU. The monthly cost is per CPU and not per socket. So a 3 node cluster with dual socket motherboards will result in 48 CPU. At the standard support, I am correct in promoting $1592.16 per month, or $19,105.92 per year?

Nah, it should be cores vs. CPUs, aka sockets. You pay per socket (or CPU). I personally dislike the per socket/per core licenses since I only see such terms as a device for asking more money (not only for PVE, but in general and it's just my personal opinion) but that's their decision.

 

[Raymond Burns]

"...it should be" as in, I messed up my assumption. Or "...it should be" as in you wish Proxmox Team would change their support pricing model?
I'm not antagonizing, just trying to understand. I've been telling people it's what I posted above. But if what you are saying is the way it should be, then the pricing model for the same setup would be 2 sockets each node; in a 3-node cluster is 6 CPU. Which, at standard pricing, is $199.02/month or 2388.24/year.
If this is true, I may actually be able to buy (do my part).

So my new sales pitch is a "High Availability, Dual-Socket Virtual Environment fully supported around $2,500 per year".
Now if only the Proxmox could work with my job on a 90-day invoicing system, I would feel better! It's governement, so that's the only way they will work.

 

[kobuki]

"...it should be" as in, I messed up my assumption. Or "...it should be" as in you wish Proxmox Team would change their support pricing model?
I'm not antagonizing, just trying to understand. I've been telling people it's what I posted above. But if what you are saying is the way it should be, then the pricing model for the same setup would be 2 sockets each node; in a 3-node cluster is 6 CPU. Which, at standard pricing, is $199.02/month or 2388.24/year.
If this is true, I may actually be able to buy (do my part).

So my new sales pitch is a "High Availability, Dual-Socket Virtual Environment fully supported around $2,500 per year".
Now if only the Proxmox could work with my job on a 90-day invoicing system, I would feel better! It's governement, so that's the only way they will work.

No, it's not wishful thinking, they make you pay per CPU, as stated here: http://www.proxmox.com/proxmox-ve/pricing - CPU is CPU (socket), and not core. These are industry standard phrases for hardware units of computation. They must write "per core" if they want to ask for licenses per core. Nowadays it seems to be a standard practice anyway (/CPU, that is). But the best and safest way is to wait for an official answer from the PVE team, or write them an email directly.

 

[mpeters]

Please check out the following link.

According to http://pve.proxmox.com/wiki/Package_repositories:

"The pve-no-subscription repo can be used for testing and non-production use.

Its not recommended to run on production servers as these packages are not always heavily tested and validated."


For me, running a couple of Proxmox nodes at home is no different from running Proxmox on our Proliant servers at the office.
Stability, reliability, and timely updates are important in both environments.

I am not a developer, I am a systems integrator.

My expertise is in resolving issues and finding solutions, not compiling and debugging code.
I'm sure many of you in the community are in the same position.

Dietmar has attempted to pacify disgruntled members of the community with various statements about the stability of the NO-SUB updates, but one statement makes it very clear:

"Its not recommended to run on production servers as these packages are not always heavily tested and validated."


This change in licensing is going to create a two-tier system with unfortunate consequences for the non-subscribing community,
which in short time will affect the entire ecosystem of both communities.


To the Proxmox Staff:
Look, I believe that most in the community are supportive of your development efforts, and they understand that download bandwidth and extended support requires financial resources.
But I don't believe that attempting to monetize updates is the way to go. I don't trust crippleware either.

I do not like the proposed CPU licensing model - it is not congruent with the spirit of community development.

I would prefer to pay a flat yearly fee (50 to 100 USD per year) that gives me value-added support including full access to the forums, much better documentation, up-to-date video tutorials of new features, and some extra handholding when issues arise. Perhaps non-subscribers would prefer basic support with access to the forums, wiki, and source code.

Your response please?

 

[Raymond Burns]

The only thing that makes me think otherwise is the FAQ section of the pricing agreement.
http://www.proxmox.com/images/download/pve/agreements/Proxmox_VE-Subscription-Agreement_V2.5.pdf

1.3 How many CPU-sockets does my server have?To see the number of CPU-sockets of your server go to the GUI of your Proxmox VE server, select the
node and go to the Summary tab – CPU name and socket count will be listed

When I go to my WebGUI it shows CPU as cores with Hyperthreading, which then doubles the cores.
I'm not trying to be a pain or anything, I just need to know what to market.

 

[kobuki]

The only thing that makes me think otherwise is the FAQ section of the pricing agreement.
http://www.proxmox.com/images/download/pve/agreements/Proxmox_VE-Subscription-Agreement_V2.5.pdf



When I go to my WebGUI it shows CPU as cores with Hyperthreading, which then doubles the cores.
I'm not trying to be a pain or anything, I just need to know what to market.

For one of my HP servers it says "4 x Intel(R) Xeon(R) CPU E5504 @ 2.00GHz (1 Socket)" - I think this is quite clear.

 

[Raymond Burns]

Thanks for the clarification.
I was going by the "4 x Intel Xeon CPU"
And a pricing model based on per CPU. That's why I assumed 4 CPU