Details about the new pve-no-subscripton repository

Status
Not open for further replies.

tmikaeld

Member
Jan 21, 2013
66
0
6
Thanks for that hint, but I see the negative attitude on the other side.
I'm quite sure many open source advocates will see it the other way around. Nag-screens does not sound well in anyones ears, even for free software. Especially for someone considering what software to choose.
 

tmikaeld

Member
Jan 21, 2013
66
0
6
The opposite is the case. Open source give you the power and rights to do what you want.
True, as long as you don't limit freedom.

I am not arguing that you don't follow Open source guidelines, because you do follow them.

Just wanted to add that not everyone will like the nag-screen and that it might affect sales.
 

tmikaeld

Member
Jan 21, 2013
66
0
6
I disagree, a lawyer would recommend against that very modification which is being discussed in this context.
Hm, you may be right, because the subscription is used in a commercial context.

Another software we use is group-office and they do load all commercial modules seperate from the open source part of the system.
 

e100

Active Member
Nov 6, 2010
1,235
24
38
Columbus, Ohio
ulbuilder.wordpress.com
I'm from the US, I take no offense of what Dietmar said.

oakleeman, the rest of this is slightly inspired by your comment but not a response to your comment.

What I am offended by are people who expect everything for free but want to give nothing in return.
Seeing commants like "well if you remove nag screen I will donate" is disengenious, if that were true then a donation would have happened before this nag screen showed up.
All this complaining about the nag screen, took me one minute to figure out how to disable it, it IS open-source making that possible and anyone is free to do so.
If someone has so much time to make post after post complaining about a feature they do not like but can not take 5 minutes to go remove said feature then it becomes obvious that they are only here to annoy and harass this community.

Anyone in this community who did not see some sort of change comming or did not see that the Proxmox team was dropping every hint possible that they need more funding must have not been paying attention or simply did not care.
They put up a sticky in the forum well over a year ago:
http://forum.proxmox.com/threads/9244-Proxmox-VE-Support-Subscriptions-and-why-everybody-should-buy-one

They started promoting the subscriptions in their signatures:
"Do you have already a Commercial Support Subscription? - If not, Buy now"

The only thing I think they have done wrong is not taking the time to spell out these changes before they were rolled out.
They had dropped plenty of hints but nothing really solid.
Upset because they fumbled the communications, OK you have a valid point.
Upset because you do not get free access to the new repo or that removing the nag screen is beyonbd your abilities then your expectations are too high.

The company I work for relies on Proxmox for a large portion of our operations, not supporting it is simply foolish.
We purchased our subscription yesterday, the price drop is what allowed me to get this approved.

I have spent countless hours helping complete strangers in these forums, tracking down bugs for the benefit of all, submitting the occasional tiny patch and now am spending money on a subscription to help support this project.
The behaviour of some people complaining that they do not get free this and free that is offensive.
If it bothers someone so much they want to leave, I wish them luck on their adventure.
Just stop crapping all over this community of great people who have provided and will continue to provide so much help and great software to anyone for free.
 

nopenopenope

New Member
Aug 22, 2013
22
0
1
Again, our Software is licensed under AGPLv3.
A lawyer will say that it's considered cracking and illegal, as are all modifications which alter notifications concerning registration, trials and notifications to buy the software. Since you're not distributing it with a notice permitting the removal of that particular bit, I doubt anyone who wants to use it without a subscription would use it in any other place than at home.

Given that it's a very common practice to dual license AGPL software in Europe, a lawyer could also say that the binary distribution can be considered a different thing than the open source code on which it's based.
It's the same thing as with software which is available under 2 licenses and you can get the community version or the paid commercial version which has some more fixes & has gone through more testing.

Why don't we stop this bs discussion where we try to justify a nag screen by saying that the software is licensed under the AGPLv3?
 

tmikaeld

Member
Jan 21, 2013
66
0
6
I'm from the US, I take no offense of what Dietmar said.

oakleeman, the rest of this is slightly inspired by your comment but not a response to your comment.

What I am offended by are people who expect everything for free but want to give nothing in return.
Seeing commants like "well if you remove nag screen I will donate" is disengenious, if that were true then a donation would have happened before this nag screen showed up.
All this complaining about the nag screen, took me one minute to figure out how to disable it, it IS open-source making that possible and anyone is free to do so.
If someone has so much time to make post after post complaining about a feature they do not like but can not take 5 minutes to go remove said feature then it becomes obvious that they are only here to annoy and harass this community.

Anyone in this community who did not see some sort of change comming or did not see that the Proxmox team was dropping every hint possible that they need more funding must have not been paying attention or simply did not care.
They put up a sticky in the forum well over a year ago:
http://forum.proxmox.com/threads/9244-Proxmox-VE-Support-Subscriptions-and-why-everybody-should-buy-one

They started promoting the subscriptions in their signatures:
"Do you have already a Commercial Support Subscription? - If not, Buy now"

The only thing I think they have done wrong is not taking the time to spell out these changes before they were rolled out.
They had dropped plenty of hints but nothing really solid.
Upset because they fumbled the communications, OK you have a valid point.
Upset because you do not get free access to the new repo or that removing the nag screen is beyonbd your abilities then your expectations are too high.

The company I work for relies on Proxmox for a large portion of our operations, not supporting it is simply foolish.
We purchased our subscription yesterday, the price drop is what allowed me to get this approved.

I have spent countless hours helping complete strangers in these forums, tracking down bugs for the benefit of all, submitting the occasional tiny patch and now am spending money on a subscription to help support this project.
The behaviour of some people complaining that they do not get free this and free that is offensive.
If it bothers someone so much they want to leave, I wish them luck on their adventure.
Just stop crapping all over this community of great people who have provided and will continue to provide so much help and great software to anyone for free.
I agree with you, and i'm not that annoyed by the nag-screen, it is only once per login!

The only worry i have is that it will get limited step by step by step until it is no longer open source software but crippleware until you pay for it.

Considering the amount of time people invest in setting up a proxmox cluster, it causes people to worry because any drastic change may cost more money than expected. And if the cost is too high, some users might be forced to move and thus adding additional costs. For example, the not-for-profit users. Maybe proxmox could add a special subscription for that?
 

nopenopenope

New Member
Aug 22, 2013
22
0
1
I'm from the US, I take no offense of what Dietmar said.

oakleeman, the rest of this is slightly inspired by your comment but not a response to your comment.

What I am offended by are people who expect everything for free but want to give nothing in return.
Seeing commants like "well if you remove nag screen I will donate" is disengenious, if that were true then a donation would have happened before this nag screen showed up.
All this complaining about the nag screen, took me one minute to figure out how to disable it, it IS open-source making that possible and anyone is free to do so.
If someone has so much time to make post after post complaining about a feature they do not like but can not take 5 minutes to go remove said feature then it becomes obvious that they are only here to annoy and harass this community.

Anyone in this community who did not see some sort of change comming or did not see that the Proxmox team was dropping every hint possible that they need more funding must have not been paying attention or simply did not care.
They put up a sticky in the forum well over a year ago:
http://forum.proxmox.com/threads/9244-Proxmox-VE-Support-Subscriptions-and-why-everybody-should-buy-one

They started promoting the subscriptions in their signatures:
"Do you have already a Commercial Support Subscription? - If not, Buy now"

The only thing I think they have done wrong is not taking the time to spell out these changes before they were rolled out.
They had dropped plenty of hints but nothing really solid.
Upset because they fumbled the communications, OK you have a valid point.
Upset because you do not get free access to the new repo or that removing the nag screen is beyonbd your abilities then your expectations are too high.

The company I work for relies on Proxmox for a large portion of our operations, not supporting it is simply foolish.
We purchased our subscription yesterday, the price drop is what allowed me to get this approved.

I have spent countless hours helping complete strangers in these forums, tracking down bugs for the benefit of all, submitting the occasional tiny patch and now am spending money on a subscription to help support this project.
The behaviour of some people complaining that they do not get free this and free that is offensive.
If it bothers someone so much they want to leave, I wish them luck on their adventure.
Just stop crapping all over this community of great people who have provided and will continue to provide so much help and great software to anyone for free.
This is where you're wrong. Let me spell it out for you:
1. I've found out about this thing one month ago.
2. 3.1 was the first version I tried on real hardware, I only had a chance to install 3.0 on a VM before to see what the GUI looks like.
3. I agree that everyone who makes money out of running shit on Proxmox VE should support it by a) donating b) getting a subscription c) getting a special support contract by contacting the Promox VE people.
4. I mean every single word about supporting them if they remove that nag screen. I WON'T DONATE 1 single cent as long as there's a nag screen.
5. I'm not even a bloody company, unlike most of the people who seem to be complaining about me complaining about the nag screen.
6. This is bs open source. It's more like fooling people into trying their software and asking for money.
7. I have already removed the damn nag screen.

Maybe you can understand this, get off your moral high horse and understand my point of view.
 
Last edited:

e100

Active Member
Nov 6, 2010
1,235
24
38
Columbus, Ohio
ulbuilder.wordpress.com
I agree with you, and i'm not that annoyed by the nag-screen, it is only once per login!

The only worry i have is that it will get limited step by step by step until it is no longer open source software but crippleware until you pay for it.
Impossible, Proxmox is built on the backs of other GPL giants.
They can not retroactively change the licenses unless they own all of the copyrights which they do not.
 

e100

Active Member
Nov 6, 2010
1,235
24
38
Columbus, Ohio
ulbuilder.wordpress.com
Maybe you can understand this, get off your moral high horse and understand my point of view.
I understand you just fine
You want something for free
You claim that if you got stuff for free, you would pay money
You do not like Proxmox, specifically the nag screen
You agree that open source should be supported
You removed the nag screen, so you obviously know how to utilize the freedoms that open source offers you thus proving that Proxmox is indeed open source.
Where is your donation now that you have removed the nag screen? or is you removing not good enough, gotta have everying handed to you with silver spoon?

The developers can choose to add a nag screen if that is what they want to do.
You are free to disagree with that, fork it, remove said nag screen and go make your own proxmox distribution.
We are aware you do not like it, we are aware you think it is bs.

Here is the million dollar question:
If you think Proxmox is bs, then why are you here?
 

kobuki

Member
Dec 30, 2008
457
22
18
If I have a cluster of, say, 5 hardware nodes, and buy the community subscription for only 2 of them, is the cluster going to funcion without problems, aside from possible additional bugs on the non-paid nodes? Will migration, live migration work between the 2 kinds of nodes? This is an existing setup, with 2 HNs for more important office systems and the other 3 is for development, backups and testing.
 

e100

Active Member
Nov 6, 2010
1,235
24
38
Columbus, Ohio
ulbuilder.wordpress.com
I sometimes have live migration issues if the Proxmox kernels are different or kvm version is different.
So that could at times possibly be an issue.

I've often run my cluster with various versions of packages, especially when I am updating to newer versions because I often roll out updates over days or weeks rather than updating all nodes at the same time.
Never had an issue with anything working other than the problem mentioned above.
 

dietmar

Proxmox Staff Member
Staff member
Apr 28, 2005
16,491
315
83
Austria
www.proxmox.com
If I have a cluster of, say, 5 hardware nodes, and buy the community subscription for only 2 of them, is the cluster going to funcion without problems, aside from possible additional bugs on the non-paid nodes?
You can only access the pve-enterpise repository from nodes with valid subscription, so you will end up with nodes using different versions.
 

kobuki

Member
Dec 30, 2008
457
22
18
You can only access the pve-enterpise repository from nodes with valid subscription, so you will end up with nodes using different versions.
I'm well aware of this, but this was not the question. The paid and non-paid versions are different only in their provided support and the additional bugfixes and testing in the paid one, and if I understand things correctly, both carry the same main version, for example 3.1 as of now. They should be able to interoperate. Is this assumption correct?
 

tom

Proxmox Staff Member
Staff member
Aug 29, 2006
13,673
426
83
there will be different package versions in these repositories. that there are identical version in the moment is just because we started with these repos just yesterday. in future there will be different versions and we do not test if these causes problems. it could work but there is no test cases for this in our test labs.
 
I'm well aware of this, but this was not the question. The paid and non-paid versions are different only in their provided support and the additional bugfixes and testing in the paid one, and if I understand things correctly, both carry the same main version, for example 3.1 as of now. They should be able to interoperate. Is this assumption correct?
I would be curious about this as well. I am running a similar environment as kobuki. All machines are at the same major version level but just different variants (example 3.0-05, 3.0-12, 3.0-23)
 

nopenopenope

New Member
Aug 22, 2013
22
0
1
I understand you just fine
You want something for free
You claim that if you got stuff for free, you would pay money
You do not like Proxmox, specifically the nag screen
You agree that open source should be supported
You removed the nag screen, so you obviously know how to utilize the freedoms that open source offers you thus proving that Proxmox is indeed open source.
Where is your donation now that you have removed the nag screen? or is you removing not good enough, gotta have everying handed to you with silver spoon?

The developers can choose to add a nag screen if that is what they want to do.
You are free to disagree with that, fork it, remove said nag screen and go make your own proxmox distribution.
We are aware you do not like it, we are aware you think it is bs.

Here is the million dollar question:
If you think Proxmox is bs, then why are you here?
You didn't understand anything at all. That "freedom" you mentioned is actually illegal in some jurisdictions - removing a notice letting you know that software has to be bought or that a subscription is needed.
You can take the source code and customize it to build whatever you want, but you may not do that with actual shipping binaries.

It was a matter of principle, one you rich people who pay a lot of money for vSphere and other things can't understand about open source software. The nag screen has to be removed BY THEM FROM THE BINARY SOFTWARE THEY SHIP.

I never said Proxmox VE is bs, those are your words. It seemed good from what I've seen so far. I've only said that putting nag screens on software you call open source is bs. That's the reality. Do you understand that it's actually a matter of principle and that the problem isn't actually about having each person manually remove the nag screen after every single update?

It'd be OK if it showed up after you have a cluster with 3-5 nodes and when you have more than 6 CPU cores or when you have more than 32 GB of RAM, but showing it every single time on every single box where it gets installed is absolutely ridiculous.

Just so it's crystal clear for you: the people behind Proxmox VE will be getting money from me as a donation only if they remove the nag screen.

Based on how the developers have written on the forum as answers to me and the direction they're taking this project, you can be sure I won't ever buy a subscription, nor recommend Proxmox VE to anyone - including anyone who might actually pay for a subscription.

I fully understand that they need money and they have to earn a living, but this isn't how you're supposed to do things. They could've least said "OK, WE UNDERSTAND, YOU'RE BOTHERED BY THE NAG SCREEN, WE'RE SORRY ABOUT THAT, WE'LL SEE WHAT CAN BE DONE". Instead, the answer was more along the lines of "**** YOU, YOU WEREN'T PAYING, NOR HELPING ANYWAY, SO **** YOU, I DON'T THINK YOU'D HAVE PAID, NOR HELPED ANYWAY". News flash: antagonizing people instead of working with them (or at least bothering to listen) won't make them give you money.

Is that also how they do customer support? Is that how they also treat people who pay them? I can imagine that there are people out there who have hundreds of boxes and are using Proxmox VE to earn money and they're not paying a single dime, but I'm not one of them. Why assume everyone is one of those people? Why treat somebody like shit without even bothering to listen? Why assume everyone has a million boxes, they're keeping all the money to themselves and not giving a dime to the people who are developing Proxmox VE?


Now, put yourself in my place: I've come up with GENUINE CONCERNS, that the software is becoming more unstable (which has been addressed to a point - the community will wait and see how things change) and that the nag screen is just the first change which is going to bring more bad changes and more closed features. Instead of being given any kind of good answer concerning the nag screen and its possible removal in a future version, the developers have found it acceptable to write the way they've written. Would you pay them for a subscription after this? I certainly won't.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

About

The Proxmox community has been around for many years and offers help and support for Proxmox VE and Proxmox Mail Gateway. We think our community is one of the best thanks to people like you!

Get your subscription!

The Proxmox team works very hard to make sure you are running the best software and getting stable updates and security enhancements, as well as quick enterprise support. Tens of thousands of happy customers have a Proxmox subscription. Get your own in 60 seconds.

Buy now!