Debian Kernel vs Ubuntu Kernel

[Masi]

Hello everybody,

some important facts of Proxmox VE 5.1:

• Based on Debian Stretch 9.3
• Kernel 4.13.13

I have a question concerning the kernel:

Why does Proxmox uses a kernel based on Ubuntu 17.10 and not on Debian Stretch 9.3 ?
What is the important difference ?

Debian Stretch 9.3 - Kernel Version 4.9
https://packages.debian.org/stretch/linux-image-amd64

Ubuntu 17.10 - Kernel Version 4.13
https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/artful/+package/linux-image-generic


Best regards
Masi

 

[tom]

Because a newer kernel provides more features. Later this year we will move to 4.14 or even 4.15.

 

[Masi]

thx tom for your answer.

can you list some technical facts, it would be really helpful.

i did a research some month ago and i found for example this important fix:

https://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linu.../?id=7cae2bedcbd4680b155999655e49c27b9cf020fa

backported under:

WHEEZY
######
Paket linux-image-3.16.0-0.bpo.4-amd64
wheezy-backports (kernel): Linux 3.16 für 64-Bit-PCs
3.16.39-1+deb8u1~bpo70+1: amd64

JESSIE
######
Paket linux-image-3.16.0-4-amd64
jessie (stable) (kernel): Linux 3.16 für 64-Bit-PCs
3.16.39-1+deb8u2 [security]: amd64 i386

these are some examples. maybe you have some technical points for 4.9 vs 4.13 concerning kvm/qemu/proxmox.

Best regards
Masi

 

[Rhinox]

So PVE is basically using "hybrid" system: Debian (which traditionally has older packages), with the newest Ubuntu kernel. Very strange approach...

 

[mir]

So PVE is basically using "hybrid" system: Debian (which traditionally has older packages), with the newest Ubuntu kernel. Very strange approach...

It's actually a very clever approach since the Ubuntu kernel used is the LTS branch providing 5 years of support. A kernel from Debian, at the time the decision was made (before Debian LTS), was only supported for the time a Debian stable was living plus 1 year. With current Debian LTS that important factor is not so much important anymore.

 

[fabian]

So PVE is basically using "hybrid" system: Debian (which traditionally has older packages), with the newest Ubuntu kernel. Very strange approach...

there are a few good reasons for this "strange" approach though:

• the Debian stable kernel does not get updated very often
• it gets outdated rather fast, and new features normally don't get backported to upstream (long term) stable kernels which are the base for Debian updates
• it gets tested on a very limited range of hardware before being released, by the nature of Debian being a community project

Ubuntu's kernel on the other hand:

• gets updated every three weeks in regular cycles
• gets fixes and backports in addition to what upstream does in their (long term) stable releases
• contains a fully-featured AppArmor out of the box, which is a requirement for LXC (the situation has improved in 4.14 and 4.15 upstream in this regard, but with 4.9 this would be a huge delta to carry on our own!)
• gets tested on a wide range of server hardware before being released (Canonical has a range of OEM partners and stuff like hardware compatibility lists)

also, the "newest" Ubuntu kernel we use is supported as part of Ubuntu LTS because it is the "HWE" kernel for recent hardware - it's not like we are running a development preview here or something akin to that in the past PVE had a more "conservative" base kernel, but users were always complaining about new hardware not being (fully) supported, or the kernel lacking modern features. using Ubuntu's kernel as a base is a compromise in that regard.

 

[Masi]

After reading all the comments, i would say that the idea behind this approach is to get the stabiliy of the general OS by Debian and the modern and testet HW-Support by Ubuntus Kernel.

From my personal view i have exactly here my concerns.

The assumption that Debian is more stable than a Ubuntu LTS is a rumor of the past than a fact.

Ubuntu has definitely more man power and capacity behind the scenes to guarantee stability and future progress than Debian

--> systemd dispute --> Debian Fork Devuan etc.

These is my personal opinion and i dont want to hurt feelings of debian fan groups. I like Debian and I like Ubuntu

 

[dietmar]

Ubuntu has definitely more man power and capacity behind the scenes to guarantee stability and future progress than Debian

Come on, this is simply not true. Even Ubuntu use Debian as base because they do not have the manpower to do all that work . Debian have a really large user and developer base.

 

[FastLaneJB]

Personally I think this approach is exactly the right one and appreciate the newer kernel for newer hardware. So please keep on doing as you are, I've had no stability problems.

 

[Masi]

to clarify ! i like your approach !

i said that they have more man power because ubuntu has financial support through investors etc.

dont think that i want to push ubuntu over debian.

i only dont accept the general statement: "Debian is more stable than Ubuntu" because it is outdated.

I would say Debian and Ubuntu has different philosophy !

I am an experienced IT/Linux expert and i know what i am talking about because my statements are based on real experiences with these two distributions.


Regards
Masi

 

[tom]

I will close this thread as its getting filled with speculations and personal "feelings", all this is off topic in this forum.

All this has nothing to do with "Proxmox VE: Installation and Configuration"