Proposal: Proxmox User Group

[Lantizia]

Note: The introduction bit of this post was updated 31/05/2021 to reflect all the other networks the unofficial channel is now on.

Hi,

A bunch of us run an unofficial Proxmox channel (covering any product including VE) on the Libera.Chat / freenode / OFTC IRC networks as well as a few other mediums like Discord and Slack (they're all bridged together as one channel).

Whenever someone is free, it's nice to be able to answer questions and support both new and experienced users in real time. However I don't think we've ever had someone from the Proxmox team come into our channel, but I might be wrong.

We started to think that perhaps a web site could compliment the channel to document some of the more frequently asked things, unofficial fixes, common problems and such.

The Proxmox VE wiki is fine except you need to have yourself authorized to edit it first - not quite the spirit of a wiki.

By that I only mean requiring registration might put people off, and might be contrary to what your average persons expectations of a wiki would be after using something more well known like Wikipedia.

We made an online poll asking if people would prefer the Proxmox VE wiki to not require registration and if they'd like to see Proxmox staff in the IRC channel, or if they thought an unofficial Proxmox User Group web site would be helpful.

http://www.easypolls.net/poll.html?p=60b4997fe4b08a57a0401321

--Edit--

It's now 2021 and this post was originally made in 2012.

The unofficial channel now has about 400 people across these networks. It seems that poll kept running and about 50% of you wanted an unofficial site... 40% preferred no registration on the wiki... and 20% would've liked the channel officially endorsed by Proxmox.

However the point was well made by others (see below) about the wiki registration being necessary to keep out spammers and running another site would just be duplication of effort... so in the intervening last 9 years, we never actually did this.

Since the channel is going very strong, it doesn't really matter now if it is officially endorsed or not really. However if anyone from Proxmox did want to visit they'd be most welcome and there would be no obligations or expectations made of them in the slightest. We always make it clear to people where official support can be obtained and the importance (if they can) of buying a contract.

Lantizia

 

[dietmar]

The Proxmox VE wiki is fine except you need to have yourself authorized to edit it first - not quite the spirit of a wiki.

Whats the problem??

 

[mmenaz]

These are my opinion as old proxmox user and FOSS activist
I prefer wiki with registration, don't want it to be vandalized or have people posting with no (moral) responsabilities about what they write. If you want to post just register, as I did. Having a wiki where unknown people can write whatever idiocy just for fun is mandess.
Second, would be nice have proxmox people on IRC but you have to consider that proxmox is a commercial entity that needs money to pay developers. They already do a great job in the forum, they have also set a low rate subscription fee for people that have the will to "help them keep helping us" (I'm going to subscribe asap). Don't see how they could have resources to provide "online support" on IRC. I'm, sometime in ##proxmox channel and, except some smalltalk about proxmox tecnology that I love, people enter with some "urgency". Do you think you can ask someone at proxmox spend his time and energy for "free realtime support"? Or for endless discussions about what they should do or have not yet done?
Last: you can open whatever user group you want, but I consider really a non-sense, you can only do damages (but I just think will be a failure without consequences).
Best regards

 

[tom]

... to have yourself authorized to edit it first - not quite the spirit of a wiki.

the "spirit of a wiki" is to work together. instead of telling the world our wiki policy is bad you should just register and your account will be opened within one day. just to note, hundreds done this already.
if you do not protect registration and watch edits in a wiki your content is dead in a few days, full with hundreds of spam pages. seems you missed that point totally. its the only way to keeps the docs clean.

IRC: I am pretty sure that everybody want that we do support via IRC, 24x7 - you should ask your IRC users if they are able to pay our staff for doing this support?

Existing community support:
the mailing list and this forum is very vital and all is moderated by Proxmox VE staff - so I do not see that there is a big need of additional "unofficial" support channels.

 

[diadicic]

It's good to know that their is a IRC channel. I will be going their soon.

Dom

 

[Lantizia]

I wasn't quite expecting such hostile-like replies here really, perhaps I've been misunderstood? I'll try to clarify...

the "spirit of a wiki" is to work together. instead of telling the world our wiki policy is bad you should just register and your account will be opened within one day. just to note, hundreds done this already.

I already do have an account on the wiki, and I'm not saying the wiki policy is "bad" it's just not quite the spirit of other wiki's which are mostly about "anyone can edit"-style collaboration (such as Wikipedia), which obviously registration is a barrier to. Especially since this also requires waiting for your registration to be accepted, writing about yourself and then logging in.

Anyone who just wants to correct a minor mistake, add a clarification or include a quick bit of new information but doesn't have an account will be put off by the above process and will likely not edit at all. Regular contributors granted are better being logged in.

But as you and mmenaz have pointed out, registration might just be a necessary step to counter spam. I'd imagine that "anyone-can-edit" is only really workable with a huge number of vigilant volunteers watching things constantly like with Wikipedia.

I'd say it's a bit of a stretch to say I've called anything "bad" at this point, just after peoples views.

IRC: I am pretty sure that everybody want that we do support via IRC, 24x7 - you should ask your IRC users if they are able to pay our staff for doing this support?

I never said anything about 24x7 support, hell most of the questions answered in the IRC channel are not real time - it's when someone spots it, but when an answer is given back and the other person is still there it's nice to have a real time chat and swap knowledge and points of view.

I'm not asking Proxmox to do anything, least of all anything that would loose them money. Just curious if anyone from the Proxmox team was interested in popping by the channel and it's up to them what they do or don't do. You realise a great many of other open source projects have IRC channels on networks like freenode and it's just about engaging with the community? They just chat when they can.

Part of me is remembering why I didn't put this poll on the forum 3 weeks ago now and just left it to Facebook and IRC.

 

[diadicic]

Lantizia,

It's a shame that this was the response to your idea. Normally I find Opensource project welcome all good idea's, but It looks like this project maybe leading to commercial system. "Not that this is a bad thing. I am thinking about purchasing support myself" I am all for them making money.


Dom

 

[tom]

We welcome good ideas but we need to response if someone is telling NOT the truth about the project. We moderate this forum and if something is wrong here we response.

The suggestion to open the wiki for anonymous poster is just not a "good idea" here and I explained why.

 

[Lantizia]

we need to response if someone is telling NOT the truth about the project.

You mean if someone has lied? I didn't lie at any point, it was just a couple of suggestions and a poll for peoples thoughts.

 

[dietmar]

I already do have an account on the wiki, and I'm not saying the wiki policy is "bad" it's just not quite the spirit of other wiki's which are mostly about "anyone can edit"...

We have quite many users, and we are already on the radar of many spammers. If we would open the wiki, it would fill up with spam within a few days. So this is simply not possible.

Anyone who just wants to correct a minor mistake, add a clarification or include a quick bit of new information but doesn't have an account will be put off by the above process and will likely not edit at all. Regular contributors granted are better being logged in.

it is easy to send a mail in such case.

I never said anything about 24x7 support, hell most of the questions answered in the IRC channel are not real time - it's when someone spots it, but when an answer is given back and the other person is still there it's nice to have a real time chat and swap knowledge and points of view.

IRC and phone support have real time nature, and we simply do not have the resources to provide that for free. We provide support on the forum instead, and that consumes 100% of our time (for example I have about 8000 post there)

Part of me is remembering why I didn't put this poll on the forum 3 weeks ago now and just left it to Facebook and IRC.

We just try to explain why we do it this way. I hope it is more clear now.

 

[dietmar]

It's a shame that this was the response to your idea.

Please re-read the response again. People just state there opinions - why is that a shame?

Normally I find Opensource project welcome all good idea's,

We welcome good ideas, yes.

but It looks like this project maybe leading to commercial system.

Proxmox Server Solutions is already a commercial system like any other company. We release our code under AGPL3.

AGPL3 does not mean that we provide any service for free - you misunderstood that.

 

[JimBeam]

I think Proxmox' policy of not immediately allowing anyone on the wiki is a very good idea as it does keep content clean.

Also, am quite happy about the forums and mailing list support - without even being a paying customer.

I think proxmox is giving plenty to the community, including the opportunity to help others online.

 

[tom]

on your poll you write "... However their wiki can't be publicly edited ..."

and this is simple wrong.

 

[JustaGuy]

on your poll you write "... However their wiki can't be publicly edited ..."

and this is simple wrong.

Why hasn't that been changed yet? This thread is old, and when I visit the poll, it still says the wiki can't be edited.

I post on the Wiki sometimes, & it's never been a problem. It seems things are fine as is, and while I like being able to hang out with fellow enthusiasts, I don't believe an IRC channel is the best method of support. I do like when websites use services like Olark in certain scenarios, like for pre-sales questions or whatever. Dell chat support helps sometimes for warranty stuff.

I think that commercial customers who have opinions on the subject are what matters when considering options such as this. IMHO non-production users are secondary concerns considering who pays the bills.

 

[tom]

yes, the wiki was always open and its still open - we just protect it against anonymous spammers.

Our commercial support portal (https://my.proxmox.com) includes a chat.

 

[m.ardito]

i agree with pve staff here...
on the wiki registering is free, and there's no admission test, afaik, you just have to prove you're not a bot. and the same goes with forums. anyone can contribute freely, and if someone says anything different, he's wrong, if not lying. if you don't care enough to register, you don't care enough about the high tech level of the info on the wiki, you don't care about wich user has written/modified it, you don't care if anyone could destroy/vandalize/screw content of the wiki, even yours.

Of _that_ wiki.
Lantizia, i don't know what is your preferred meaning of "hostile", but to me it's not fair state "i would like you to change your policies because i don't like them, otherwise... you're hostile"... every answer you got was clearly motivated and explained. and very reasonable to me

If you think that a different site could support your unofficial irc channel, you can still open a new "totally free" unofficial wiki somewhere on the web, and manage that anyway you can, just don't state it's an official one. Only time will tell if your "totally free" approach will pay or not...

best regards,
Marco

 

[Lantizia]

on your poll you write "... However their wiki can't be publicly edited ..."

and this is simple wrong.

Well 9 years later I've remembered this thread! Mostly because someone on IRC reminded me to look at any threads where I'd mentioned the unofficial channel (and update the fact it's not just on freenode any longer).

Amazingly that poll was still online too! It would seem they're not editable once they've started, which might explain why I didn't edit it at the time. However I've found a workaround and updated the original link so it goes to a poll that doesn't say anything ambiguous. It was never my intention for 'publicly editable' to imply anything other how a registration was required first. In other words, whilst registrations were open to the public... editing was only open to registered users. So since those registrations have to be accepted first, this might not represent the entirety of "the public".

Not that I'm wanting to retread old ground... especially as I was completely sold on why registration was needed with the very first reply to this thread!

None of this matters in the slightest now anyway as the idea of an unofficial wiki was ruled out a long long time ago and the channel is still running very strong on multiple networks today... with or without any interest from Proxmox.