More than a little mystified

[orangehand]

I seem to be stuck at square 1. I have PM installed, but I cannot get beyond accessing the Webui. Is there a getting started guide written for non-linux geeks anywhere?

(the Xeon box I've installed it on has 1 x 250gb SSD and 3x1Tb HDD. All I am offered is a small part of the SSD as a store and have no clue how to add the HDDs as datastores. As an IT pro, but not a linux-head, this product is totally impenetrable! The acronyms need expanding, and a lot more plain English used imho. Or a wizard for the common man!)

 

[udo]

Hi,
for linux beginner there are some good books on the market...
For a first view, there are some hints on youtube https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=proxmox (also the official proxmox-channel).
And the wiki is helpfull also: https://pve.proxmox.com/wiki/Main_Page

pve is open-source - you can get all infos in the web. Perhaps not even quiet easy, but there are no secrets like with windows software.


Udo

 

[orangehand]

It is a bit of a mystery why this is so undocumented. Surely the easier it is made, the more support subs they will get and everyone wins. I appreciate your advice above, but there is no clue even where to start. What is the point in having a gui that is 99% opaque? Step one should be what happens to the drive on which you install Proxmox (how is it partitioned, and what parts of it can you use for storage), and step 2 should be how you add additional storage, and what type of storage that should be. I worked out vsphere on my own. With this I am totally bemused. And I don't want to be!

 

[orangehand]

I worked out (I think) how to create a zfs disk, but upload is greyed out, so it is effectively useless, with no clue as to how to fix it.

 

[udo]

It is a bit of a mystery why this is so undocumented.

do you have seen the links in my post? There a a lot of documentation - but you must read!

Surely the easier it is made, the more support subs they will get and everyone wins.

I think not that pve is difficult - but this is perhaps a differnt point of view.

I appreciate your advice above, but there is no clue even where to start.

wrong - there was links like this: https://pve.proxmox.com/wiki/Installation

What is the point in having a gui that is 99% opaque?

??? use an language for the gui, which you understand?!

Step one should be what happens to the drive on which you install Proxmox (how is it partitioned, and what parts of it can you use for storage), and step 2 should be how you add additional storage, and what type of storage that should be.

This depends, which format you use. This is one of the top advantages of open-source - you have a lot of choices, depens on your needs/hardware/... lvm/lvm-thin/zfs/ext4/...

I worked out vsphere on my own. With this I am totally bemused. And I don't want to be!

If you want vsphere use vsphere!
If you want to use an free and flexible virtualization environment where you have multible choices, use pve (try to use an ceph-cluster with vsphere - and you will see how nice pve is).

Udo

 

[tom]

I seem to be stuck at square 1. I have PM installed, but I cannot get beyond accessing the Webui. Is there a getting started guide written for non-linux geeks anywhere?

Start reading here:

https://pve.proxmox.com/wiki/Main_Page

https://pve.proxmox.com/pve-docs/

https://pve.proxmox.com/pve-docs/pve-admin-guide.html#_bibliography

 

[orangehand]

Seriously Tom? I have to buy books to have an idea as to how to choose a datastore format and how to set it up? I know I am labouring this point, but compare this situation to ANY other hypervisor and it seems nuts. You assume a huge level of existing knowledge just to be able to add a store. I will ask the question separately.

 

[orangehand]

So, I have a Xeon Lenovo server with 1x256 SSD, 3x1Tb HDD and currently 12Gb RAM. I am using a vsphere analogy: I want to install proxmox and have all the drives available for datastores within it. What choices should I make? I have no knowledge of the various formats, so need some help please. I have no knowledge of containers, but would like to be able to use them if necessary.
Thanks

 

[tom]

You should configure your storage to your needs and workload, there is no general advice for all workloads.

Generally speaking, your server just got 12 GB or ram, which is not that much nowadays and you will hit a RAM limit soon.

A common setup with such hardware is ZFS Raid1 (using the HDDs) and adding a SSD as ZFS cache after finishing the ISO installation. But your SSD has to be reliable and fast enough (datacenter class SSD only).
But as mentioned, your RAM will limit you here.

 

[orangehand]

My needs are individual datastores, not raid-ed, on which to store vm's. So what next please?

 

[tom]

My needs are individual datastores, not raid-ed, on which to store vm's. So what next please?

Also possible, but you put your data on risk if you do not use and raid.

You should read the documentation first before you ask all here, as your questions are covered in the admin guides.

 

[orangehand]

I hope you will accept that your so-called documentation is written for linux experts. I can't even work out where to look, as I understand very little of it. Please tell me where to start so that I can simply set up 3 x 1Tb datastores from the spare disks on the host and store vm's to them.

 

[orangehand]

I fail to understand why you cannot at least publish a getting started video aimed at new users that explains the concept in simple terms - with audio. The ones you have posted teach nothing. They are silent and nothing is explained.

 

[Alessandro 123]

If you want to drive a car, you have to go to a driving school. Is not a car-vendor issue if you don't know how to use the gears.

Every system need a little bit of study, this is not Windows where you just press "Next" hoping that something will work as you exepect

Try to use Xen if you think would be easier, then, on any issue, even the simpler one, you are totally stuck.

 

[Alwin]

In the linux world, there are many ways to do things, making the start a little bit steep. But once you get the hang of it (worth while), you have the freedom of choice to do it your way. One of the advantages of PVE, I would say. On the contrary to some other hypervisor products out there, that allow only a very narrow band of options.

The start means, you need to go onto the command line (through ssh or gui console) and check the disks you want to use, format them with the filesystem of your liking and then configure it as data store through command line, file editing or the gui. This leaves you with many choices to make. Due to this it is not easy to give you a step-by-step that fits your needs.

As you know already how to create a zfs pool, you can go and add disk there or create more pools, then these are configurable on the GUI. This will, as mentioned by @tom, not provide any data redundancy on disk failure or provide the expected performance.

But in the end, you will not get around a good amount of reading to achieve what you set out to do.

See our system administration chapter, for some common tasks on the platform.
https://pve.proxmox.com/pve-docs/chapter-sysadmin.html#chapter_system_administration

Some other linux book ideas:
https://www.oreilly.com/free/
https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Guide_to_Unix/Linux
https://www.manning.com/books/learn-linux-in-a-month-of-lunches
https://www.manning.com/books/linux-in-action?a_aid=bootstrap-it&a_bid=4ca15fc9

 

[orangehand]

Thanks Alvin.
Some context: I support ~250 Mac and Win users across several companies, as well as running all their infrastructures (servers, networking, the lot). I have budget authority for new systems at 4 of them. I work 12 hours a day, 5-6 days a week keeping on top of this workload. Can you understand why I find it a little frustrating to be sent off to read books in order to set up a hypervisor in order to evaluate it for my customers? There are no contextual tips in the webui, no wizard, and you do not publish any usable getting started videos (the ones you do have no audio and no explanation of the steps).

So far I have created a zfs drive that I cannot upload to (and all i did was follow instructions in one of your guides), connected to my NAS via NFS, but it doesn't show any existing content, and I have spent hours getting nowhere. You mention that zfs will give me no protection. I thought the whole point of zfs is that it creates redundant storage pools that do not require a raid card.

If you want PVE to be a kind of geek-secret, fair enough. But for a busy working IT generalist like myself, it's a non-starter, and thus my clients will never see it. All you and Tom have done is tell me to RTFM. Is that what Proxmox calls being helpful? I'd love to know.

 

[orangehand]

I am trying to create a vm. where do I upload the iso to please? the option is local in the create vm dialog, but I don't know where that is? I assume I first need to download the iso to my local machine (mac) then scp it to the pve host somewhere? I'm trying Ubuntu 16.04 as a first attempt. Thanks

 

[Alwin]

Some context: I support ~250 Mac and Win users across several companies, as well as running all their infrastructures (servers, networking, the lot). I have budget authority for new systems at 4 of them. I work 12 hours a day, 5-6 days a week keeping on top of this workload.

I have been there myself and I can tell you, this is in no way a sustainable workload. If your work time doesn't include learning/training, then your productivity and ingenuity will suffer drastically. But this is a different discussion, for another time.

There are no contextual tips in the webui, no wizard, and you do not publish any usable getting started videos (the ones you do have no audio and no explanation of the steps).

There is sure room for improvement, man power is the key word here. As the nature of open source, everyone is welcome to fill in the gaps. Send patches, work on the docs, publish tutorials, help out on the various from/chats, to make PVE a better.

So far I have created a zfs drive that I cannot upload to (and all i did was follow instructions in one of your guides),

ZFS is a filesystem and volume manager, to do a upload you need a directory storage (zfs filesytem) to upload ISOs or container templates.

connected to my NAS via NFS, but it doesn't show any existing content, and I have spent hours getting nowhere.

The contents of a nfs share are filtered and you will find directories there that were created by PVE (dump/images/template/private). The ISOs go into the template/iso folder. Then they are visible in the gui too.

You mention that zfs will give me no protection. I thought the whole point of zfs is that it creates redundant storage pools that do not require a raid card.

There are different modes possible with zfs (hence freedom of choice), single disk pool (no redundancy), mirror, raidz modes (different raid levels). If you LVM or solely only a filesystem, then a raid controller is the way to go.

If you want PVE to be a kind of geek-secret, fair enough. But for a busy working IT generalist like myself, it's a non-starter, and thus my clients will never see it. All you and Tom have done is tell me to RTFM. Is that what Proxmox calls being helpful? I'd love to know.

This is not true, as you can see from all people being helpful in the thread. PVE and Linux (probably including subsequent technologies) are in your case new and require learning. As you also had to learn the VMware/MAC/Microsoft way of things, to profit now by the existing knowledge you gained.

An alternativ to the Microsoft/MAC/VMware .... programs:
https://www.lpi.org/our-certifications/lpic-1-overview
https://www.edx.org/course/introduction-linux-linuxfoundationx-lfs101x-1

I am trying to create a vm. where do I upload the iso to please? the option is local in the create vm dialog, but I don't know where that is? I assume I first need to download the iso to my local machine (mac) then scp it to the pve host somewhere? I'm trying Ubuntu 16.04 as a first attempt. Thanks

See above, my comment on the nfs share. To scp the ISO into the existing directory (/var/lib/vz/template/iso) on the node itself is also an option.