Why there is no official docker image of PBS?

[doman18]

Im sure someone has asked this before but i cant find it in search results.

What are the reasons that PBS is not relased as docker image. Yes there is ayufans repo but honestly i would prefer to rely on official one. I mean it can't be about technical difficulties because i think there is none? Or are there?

Can someone put some light on this topic?

 

[gurubert]

The Proxmox Backup Server is a complex application running multiple processes that need to consume hardware (storage).
Why would you want to put that into a Docker container?

 

[doman18]

The Proxmox Backup Server is a complex application running multiple processes that need to consume hardware (storage).

Well, none of this things seem like real obstacle. A lot of people run it on LXC containers (including me) without a problem. Storage can be abstracted with volumes.

Why would you want to put that into a Docker container?

Because of all benefits docker brings and why many other (selfhosted) software are released with it:

- ease of setup - just set ports, volumes, sometimes some env variables, done
- ease of use - just 2 commands to start and stop
- ease of upgrade - just change image tag, pull, start and if something is not ok then you just change tag back to old one.
- multiplatform - it doesn't matter if its linux laptop, server, minipc what kind of linux - ubuntu, arch, proxmox, Synology DSM, Unraid, openmediavault - as long it can run docker i can run it
- comparing to VMs - less resource hungry, more resource flexible, less tedious to work with in terms of storage

 

[esi_y]

What are the reasons that PBS is not relased as docker image.

Utilisation of in-house resources.

I mean it can't be about technical difficulties because i think there is none? Or are there?

What's the problem installing it on top of Debian into LXC?

 

[doman18]

Utilisation of in-house resources.

I think i dont understand. Can you elaborate?

What's the problem installing it on top of Debian into LXC?

LXC is native only on proxmox. Installing LXC just for PBS is either overkill or difficult/not-possible (dsm, qnap, asustor, unraid etc.). For example i wish i could install PBS on my synology DS920+ and store backups there. If there was a docker image i could install it very easily. Yes, there are VMs but, as i said before, its both suboptimal (resources) and tedious regarding storage management (for example creating NFS share on DSM just to mount it inside VM).

 

[esi_y]

I think i dont understand. Can you elaborate?

The cost/benefit for the vendor is just coming out such that you are not going to have them doing it for you, for free. Something else is prioritised.

LXC is native only on proxmox.

What do you mean? Have a look at e.g. Incus [1] - "formerly" LXD under Ubuntu. Proxmox literally took Ubuntu's kernel to support it.

Installing LXC just for PBS is either overkill or difficult/not-possible (dsm, qnap, asustor, unraid etc.). For example i wish i could install PBS on my synology DS920+ and store backups there.

I do not think you are the target market for PBS, if it sounds harsh, I apologise, but I really think the product was made for different use case.

If there was a docker image i could install it very easily.

But the problem is no one installs anything on standalone Docker except for testing / development or hobbyist use.

[1] https://linuxcontainers.org/incus/

 

[spirit]

then you need to manage remote sync scheduling daemon, passthrough tapes devices, manage other jobs (garbage collection,verification), manage ssl certificates (certbot,...).
so you'll have a docker compose at minimum with multiple dockers containers.

or you can simply do "apt install proxmox-backup" ...

 

[doman18]

The cost/benefit for the vendor is just coming out such that you are not going to have them doing it for you, for free. Something else is prioritised.

Got it. Thanks

What do you mean? Have a look at e.g. Incus [1] - "formerly" LXD under Ubuntu. Proxmox literally took Ubuntu's kernel to support it.

„Native” is wrong word for what i ment. I rather ment that only proxmox utilizes it heavily and treats it as integral part of the OS, as first class citizen. In any other cases docker is more popular and has more wide collections of tools built arround it.

I do not think you are the target market for PBS, if it sounds harsh, I apologise, but I really think the product was made for different use case.

Well i was naive enough to think that things like „community repos” and no payment fee indicate proxmox VE and PBS are products made with „respect” of homelabbers community. I know it was never targeted for homelabbers and home users per se but still proxmox team hear their voices. Otherwise this forum would not exist or would be a closed-subscription-only forum.

But the problem is no one installs anything on standalone Docker except for testing / development or hobbyist use.

Ive been working 3 years in company where all software was deployed with docker compose. And they collaborated with companies which also did the same. Really not every container project needs to be deployed in k8s or cloud saas solutions.

[1] https://linuxcontainers.org/incus/

Thanks, will check this out.

then you need to manage remote sync scheduling daemon, passthrough tapes devices, manage other jobs (garbage collection,verification), manage ssl certificates (certbot,...).
so you'll have a docker compose at minimum with multiple dockers containers.

or you can simply do "apt install proxmox-backup" ...

And thats the answer i was expecting for when i was asking about „technical reasons”. Indeed it looks like it would require too big ingerention in pbs architecture to make it right (splitting to microservices). Thanks, that clarifies a lot

 

[esi_y]

only proxmox utilizes [LXC] heavily and treats it as integral part of the OS, as first class citizen. In any other cases docker is more popular and has more wide collections of tools built arround it.

As far as I am concerned, PVE took the idea in 2015 [1] off LXD, which in the meantime took its own route [2]. You can migrate between the two almost seamlessly [3].

Well i was naive enough to think that things like „community repos” and no payment fee indicate proxmox VE and PBS are products made with „respect” of homelabbers community.

The "no subscription" repository comes at the cost of running invariably buggy software, which in turn helps the quality of the paid repository. It's your call if you find "respect" in that. Respecful, in my book, would be to call the repository "test" as it used to be. I found the whole approach disrespectful in many other ways [4ab]. I was also at first ridiculed on Bugzilla [4c] for identifying a 10y+ old bug, only to have it eventually fixed (ignoring my patch for months - that is fine, but why let users run buggy software while working on own patch?), while release notes included only "modernized" handling of SSH [4d]. Similar situations going on in this very forum, you are e.g. trying to nail down a bug, only to be ridiculed something must be wrong with your hardware or you simply do not know what you are talking about (i.e. you are "just" a homelabber). Then eventually filed bug gets ignored [4e]. It is obvious that no paid customers complained about this, if they did and got successfully gaslit into believing it was their fault, problem solved.

I know it was never targeted for homelabbers and home users per se but still proxmox team hear their voices. Otherwise this forum would not exist or would be a closed-subscription-only forum.

This forum is upaid testers' graveyard where strangers get help from other random kind strangers. True, at points staff helps you here, but it only gets you so far (follow the docs, put "nomodeset" into kernel param if you have NVIDIA, never mind we never fix our installer). The value provided by yourself back is that you are running the no-subscription repository and thus as a guinea pig can contribute free test results (the test cases that Proxmox has in-house are very lacking). Look at the versions of kernel, they are not LTS ones - they NEED YOU TESTING.

Ive been working 3 years in company where all software was deployed with docker compose. And they collaborated with companies which also did the same. Really not every container project needs to be deployed in k8s or cloud saas solutions.

I wonder if it also used watchtower [5] to keep itself up to date. It is not professional setup, by professional I mean something I would be proud charging money for.

And thats the answer i was expecting for when i was asking about „technical reasons”. Indeed it looks like it would require too big ingerention in pbs architecture to make it right (splitting to microservices). Thanks, that clarifies a lot

This is exactly the kind of gaslighting you get on this forum, from other members. Of course PBS could be published as a Docker image. Of course you can manage certbot within that. Of course you can pass through "tape devices" (every homelabber does, right?). Sometimes it is a Stockholm syndrome asylum here. Don't fall for it. It's just extra work, paid customers not asking for this.

EDIT: One thing I want to say, I did get responses here from some staff on how some things run under the hood and architecture and technicalities within sources, that's something they get no benefit from and they absolutely do not have to do. I commend that, but we are talking a handful of individuals. I would name them, but then others would get offended. I think they know who they are anyways. Overall, the business model pushes to hunt for bugs to fix, not be assisting with a homelab setup.

[1] https://pve.proxmox.com/wiki/Roadmap#Proxmox_VE_4.0_beta1
[2] https://linuxcontainers.org/lxd/
[3] https://shawtyds.wordpress.com/2021...rs-from-proxmox-ve-back-to-plain-old-lxd-lxc/
[4a] https://forum.proxmox.com/threads/moderator-removal-no-valid-subscription-popup-removal.153059/
[4b] https://forum.proxmox.com/threads/czech-translation-for-2-x.11797/#post-696451
[4c] https://bugzilla.proxmox.com/show_bug.cgi?id=4252#c18
[4d] https://pve.proxmox.com/wiki/Roadmap#Proxmox_VE_8.1
[4e] https://bugzilla.proxmox.com/show_bug.cgi?id=5243
[5] https://github.com/containrrr/watchtower