MODERATOR REMOVAL: No valid subscription popup removal

[esi_y]

... pun intended.

Well, this is embarassing, another of these threads (first of mine, despite 3 were quoted) closed by @Stoiko Ivanov without explanation?

https://forum.proxmox.com/threads/no-valid-subscription-popup-removal-pve-8-2.152981/#post-694926

I wondered why there's no proper forum thread with this code change. As mentioned in my opening post, this supports only one thing - people running shoddily patched PVE which will then become a target, it does not increase sales of the Community subscription.

I remember @dietmar mentioning himself expressly the license allows for this, there's no forum rules preventing this (or am I not aware of something)? The moderation message simply asks no to post such instructions on the "official forum" - so would you prefer me to post it as a GIST? Surely this was not well thought out?

What purpose does this serve @martin?

Thank you for a decent answer, everyone on the forum deserves it, I believe.

 

[pveuser113]

I've posted recently on netflix forum about the best vpn client to use to workaround their sharing-busting, which only serves to save people from downloading malware filled vpns. It does not prevent them from selling more subscriptions, those people wouldnt buy it anyway... They deleted it and I still dont know why...

I did check their ToS and found this : We may remove or modify any Content submitted at any time, with or without cause, with or without notice. Requests for Content to be removed or modified will be undertaken only at our discretion. We may terminate your access to all or any part of the Service at any time, with or without cause, with or without notice.

No.. wait, its the Proxmox forum ToS.

 

[esi_y]

I've posted recently on netflix forum about the best vpn client to use to workaround their sharing-busting, which only serves to save people from downloading malware filled vpns. It does not prevent them from selling more subscriptions, those people wouldnt buy it anyway... They deleted it and I still dont know why...

I did check their ToS and found this : We may remove or modify any Content submitted at any time, with or without cause, with or without notice. Requests for Content to be removed or modified will be undertaken only at our discretion. We may terminate your access to all or any part of the Service at any time, with or without cause, with or without notice.

No.. wait, its the Proxmox forum ToS.

I just want to be clear, this was me first time ever posting for someone who just started testing PVE (and I know how bugging it is when you install, reinstall, try to activate 2FA, etc.) during setting up, dismantling, etc. cluster to click on it all the time. That same person then goes and searches all sorts of GH repos (with BASE64 encoded payloads and postinst hooks) to achieve the same.

Apparently, I do not need it for myself. Apparently I do not have any special motivation to deprive PVE staff of their income. But:

1. If you have an issue with this, you need to make it go into your license.
2. If you want to run a forum, make an EXPRESS rule about this.
3. If you want to keep integrity, do not be timid about explaining yourself about (2) above.

 

[leesteken]

As I mentioned before, I do think it's impolite to remove the one reminder of what keeps free and open software free and open: money provided by those who can and are willing.

Everybody has a reason why supporting Proxmox right now is inconvenient. That's fine and Proxmox appears to be managing (since we get regular updates). Just don't start threads here about removing the subscription reminder, removing the branding, forking the source and pretending that it is yours, etc. You are free to do so anywhere else. Just be a little respectful about it around this particular place.

Proxmox owns this forum and they can do what they like (since this is a company and not a democracy). We're all strangers on the internet and volunteers here. Nobody is entitled to anything. Let's all try to keep it friendly and polite.

EDIT1: You are not doing anything wrong legally (probably, IANAL) but you seem to lack the ability to read a room or to sense how your post are received or could be received by the Proxmox staff and community. Maybe you are even technically and morally right (which is the best kind) but lack the common sense of how you are perceived.

EDIT2: Sorry for becoming impolite myself but I don't know how to bring the message across otherwise. I don't really have a stake in this one way or another, so maybe I should just stop responding.

 

[andlil]

The removed thread made me buy a community license subscription for one of my nodes which is about what I can afford and still support Proxmox. So it was not a total loss for the company…

 

[esi_y]

money provided by those who can and are willing

Do you believe the popup increases the ability or the willingness of the contributing folks?

Just don't start threads here about removing the subscription reminder, removing the branding, forking the source and pretending that it is yours, etc.

I do not appreciate this comparison, especially the last one.

EDIT: This is the thing, I have no control what people do with whatever piece of advice, so of course I would help someone e.g. forking a project with GNU license. If they then go on and "pretend" it was theirs ... are you going to ban selling kitchen knives now too? Or only in your shop?

Just be a little respectful about it around this particular place.

For me the popup removal is no different than advising someone how to change the font size. It is a bad UX decision in my opinion and number of posts on this (that "had to" be closed) is a testament to that. If there was e.g. constant red banner on top, I would not be inclined to post anything, personally.

Proxmox owns this forum and they can do what they like (since this is a company and not a democracy).

Yes and I would like to understand what kind of mindset people behind the company have. Virtue signalling with GNU Affero [1] and then silently "moderating" what people do with the sources albeit on their own forum is a bit off-putting to me. Am I the only one?

We're all strangers on the internet and volunteers here. Nobody is entitled to anything.

Well, you do something to my content that you had a legal disclaimer to cover for - of course I can feel entitled to a reasonable explanation. The legalese constructs do not change about anything the (in)decency.

Let's all try to keep it friendly and polite.

Was there anything impolite in your opinion in the post?

[1] https://www.gnu.org/licenses/agpl-3.0.txt

 

[esi_y]

The removed thread made me buy a community license for one of my nodes which is about what I can afford and still support Proxmox. So it was not a total loss for the company…

I am glad I contributed to it, too. Now, you have multiple nodes only one of which is on the "enterprise" repo? Is that a supported configuration, I wonder ...

EDIT: They would want to correct you to call it a "subscription" instead. I agree it's different, but I put it here just so we do not detract from the thread topic over this later.

 

[Falk R.]

I am glad I contributed to it, too. Now, you have multiple nodes only one of which is on the "enterprise" repo? Is that a supported configuration, I wonder ...

If you have a subscription, you do not require to use the Enterprise Repo.
But you can use the node to see what is already released in the Enterprise Repo

 

[esi_y]

If you have a subscription, you do not require to use the Enterprise Repo.
But you can use the node to see what is already released in the Enterprise Repo

So it is a donation, after all, not a subscription license. This, however, is nowhere documented and my original question stands ... is it perfectly fine to run only some (one) of multiple nodes in a cluster on enterprise repo, I suppose not.

 

[Falk R.]

There are no licenses, only a subscription for support. With the Community, the support is the Enterprise Repo. I don't like it when you call a support subscription a license, it gives the wrong impression.

For example, in my home lab I have two nodes with a subscription and a mini PC without a subscription. This works wonderfully, but of course is not officially tested. You can also patch manually and only install the same packages as in the Enterprise Repo.

 

[esi_y]

There are no licenses

EDIT: I kind of got fed up on this one and put it into another thread:
https://forum.proxmox.com/threads/just-got-a-subscription-license-wth.151392/#post-695253

It's inconsequential to this thread anyhow and don't want to detract from it.

For example, in my home lab I have two nodes with a subscription and a mini PC without a subscription.

In a cluster?

of course is not officially tested

There you go. So maybe it's doing oneself a disservice to purchase and use it.

You can also patch manually and only install the same packages as in the Enterprise Repo.

I am not sure I understood this part.

 

[Falk R.]

In a cluster?

Yes in a Cluster with Ceph, but the Mini PC is my Quorum an has no OSDs.

I am not sure I understood this part.

You can see which version of each package is available for download on the server with Enterprise Repo. You can go and install the same versions of the packages on the nodes without Enterprise Repo, even if newer versions are offered.

I don't do the work and always patch the Mini PC with no Subscription Repo. This has worked stably since 7.0.

 

[esi_y]

You can see which version of each package is available for download on the server with Enterprise Repo. You can go and install the same versions of the packages on the nodes without Enterprise Repo, even if newer versions are offered.

Naughty! I mean, out of all people, you who gave a LIKE to the moderator for closing the thread ... this is literally suggesting to "steal" from one subscription to N. Mine was mere UX change where no benefits were taken advantage of, just a pesky UI element removed.

I don't do the work and always patch the Mini PC with no Subscription Repo. This has worked stably since 7.0.

Of course.

 

[esi_y]

You can go and install the same versions of the packages on the nodes without Enterprise Repo, even if newer versions are offered.

The interesting takeout from your observation against this old post [1] however is, that the no-subscription repo is INDEED TESTING, while the test one is UNSTABLE. And yes I am using (not only) Debian's nomenclature [2][3], it is of course built on top of it.

EDIT: My point being - if you want to entice more spooked users to pay a subscription, maybe call the repo TESTING, that alone would do.

[1] https://forum.proxmox.com/threads/details-about-the-new-pve-no-subscripton-repository.15742/
[2] https://www.debian.org/releases/
[3] https://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/debian-faq/ftparchives#frozen

 

[esi_y]

EDIT1: You are not doing anything wrong legally (probably, IANAL) but you seem to lack the ability to read a room or to sense how your post are received or could be received by the Proxmox staff and community. Maybe you are even technically and morally right (which is the best kind) but lack the common sense of how you are perceived.

Maybe it's even worse, maybe I read it just alright, but do not mind. I do not mind because I believe I explained myself (in the closed original post as well) and have not received any logical counterpoint. If I get some response, even if I do not agree with it, it would be something that a topic can be closed with. A response "because we can" is not a response.

EDIT2: Sorry for becoming impolite myself but I don't know how to bring the message across otherwise. I don't really have a stake in this one way or another, so maybe I should just stop responding.

I do not think being blunt it necessarily impolite, I have no issue with any of what you wrote above. I do not have a stake in it either, it's sad. If I am around this forum and see a post of someone struggling with getting rid of a popup I now know I have to sneakily send them a private message and point them to a GIST. It's very sad to see on a public forum (it's not a invite-only here) around GNU Affero licensed product.

PS Thanks for EDITs and marking them.

 

[iprigger]

Yes in a Cluster with Ceph, but the Mini PC is my Quorum an has no OSDs.

You can see which version of each package is available for download on the server with Enterprise Repo. You can go and install the same versions of the packages on the nodes without Enterprise Repo, even if newer versions are offered.

I don't do the work and always patch the Mini PC with no Subscription Repo. This has worked stably since 7.0.

Hi,

You could also create your own debian repo from this - but I would not recommend doing so if you are using the software for anything else but playing around.

Proxmox is doing a great job - and the systems have been rock solid over the last 10 years. Hardly any hickups.

I'm happy to pay for a subscription every year for my nodes - most of which are in production use.

Again: You don't have to buy a subscription - but if you're earning money with what you're doing I find it a bit fould to just use the software without giving something back. This is my personal opinion - your mileage might vary, though.

Tobias

 

[esi_y]

You could also create your own debian repo from this

It's almost funny how this turned into "how else this could be done" with 1 socket subscription (for repo, because no support for "community" one) to get it for all nodes. I just want to point out that everyone posting these "installation and configuration" tips are doing nothing else than I did. In fact, my post was patch to remove a popup on fresh install, no "cheating" on license/repos, no false messages (you still see you are not on enterprise repos), no fake "active" flags for the license. My post was removed. How are these discussions different?

Again: You don't have to buy a subscription - but if you're earning money with what you're doing I find it a bit fould to just use the software without giving something back. This is my personal opinion - your mileage might vary, though.

I agree with the rest of your post, actually.

 

[iprigger]

It's almost funny how this turned into "how else this could be done" with 1 socket subscription (for repo, because no support for "community" one) to get it for all nodes. I just want to point out that everyone posting these "installation and configuration" tips are doing nothing else than I did. In fact, my post was patch to remove a popup on fresh install, no "cheating" on license/repos, no false messages (you still see you are not on enterprise repos), no fake "active" flags for the license. My post was removed. How are these discussions different?



I agree with the rest of your post, actually.

Hi,

in comparison to you I didn't post the "howto"

Tobias

P.S: Maybe my post is going to removed, too

 

[esi_y]

in comparison to you I didn't post the "howto"

I want to point out one thing: The people who are most likely to benefit from these "bypass" business models are no the folks who need a HOWTO. All they need is an idea. The people who NEED the HOWTO are the ones that a GPL licensed product maker should not be attempting to live off, it's a lose-lose proposition.

P.S: Maybe my post is going to removed, too

You can claim entrapment.

 

[iprigger]

I want to point out one thing: The people who are most likely to benefit from these "bypass" business models are no the folks who need a HOWTO. All they need is an idea. The people who NEED the HOWTO are the ones that a GPL licensed product maker should not be attempting to live off, it's a lose-lose proposition.



You can claim entrapment.

on that point I have to disagree - because I have seen otherwise numerous times.

There are people out there who willingly try to scam their customers - minimum effort for maximum return - while remaining absolutely clueless.

I won't go too much into detail but I have uncovered "rebranded" open source projects in several cases with people being convicted for copyright infringement because of this - and yes, I have uncovered a ripoff of proxmox ve that has been resold under a different name. the only difference was the nag screen being removed and a different logo (and, of course, no updates for ages).

Everything in proxmox is open source - so in theory you could just go ahead and modify almost everything.

If your customer is fine running its infrastructure without a subscription it's fine with me. I would not recommend doing so - but your mileage might vary.

But if you *claim* that you own the softare (i.e. are the developer of it), then rip out the nag screen and invoice the customer ridiculous amounts of money it's a con.

tobias