But if you download the ISO and are doing a clean install, you don't have Debian installed to even run scripts with. It's a blank HDD which is typically the way I install Proxmox and it's what I've always been told is the preferred way to do the install. So it seems like a clean HDD using the ISO should work, but it doesn't.
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- Thread starter cdsJerry
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But if you download the ISO and are doing a clean install, you don't have Debian installed to even run scripts with. It's a blank HDD which is typically the way I install Proxmox and it's what I've always been told is the preferred way to do the install. So it seems like a clean HDD using the ISO should work, but it doesn't.
A clean Debian installer on a blank HDD would work in more instances than when PVE one does. So I understand it is the extra "steps" you mind, but if you simply installed Debian on that blank HDD and then launched a script, that gives you your reliable installer and PVE. I suppose executing one script on command line is not a show stopper and it would allow Proxmox to completely focus on the hypervisor, not the installer.
it's what I've always been told is the preferred way to do the install.
Nope, not always:
Well, there are several reports. But one big part of that is just due to very old hardware, which simply got broken in newer kernel releases since nobody cares about them anymore - most often to due economical reasons.
The other part really boils down to sloppy vendors which may only check compatibility with proprietary software from partner vendors and do not care about standard compliance and free software. And on consumer hardware, the firmware in general often does not get tested very well. Again, something that should be resolved with the vendor itself.
We provide several workarounds, e.g. adding nomodeset, or using the stock Debian installer and then installing Proxmox VE on top of that.
See this is what I'm talking about. To you installing Debian is "simply" but to me it's not. I would have to figure where to get it, how to determine what version to get, and what items to select during the installation that are needed by Proxmox while also not installing things that aren't needed or perhaps conflict. To people like me, there's nothing "simply" about installing an OS.if you simply installed Debian on that blank HDD and then launched a script,
And having the installer repeatedly fail isn't so simple either. I tried to install it at least half a dozen times before finally having someone respond to my post here. And even then they didn't explain how I was supposed to use the workaround until the second or third set of questions. Again, what's "simple" to an experienced Linux user isn't as "simple" to some of the rest of us. I expect an installer on a clean system to work. And the hardware I'm installing on isn't that old. I purchased it specifically to run Proxmox because I was losing confidence in the RAID controller on my old system, which had been EOL.
See this is what I'm talking about. To you installing Debian is "simply" but to me it's not. I would have to figure where to get it, how to determine what version to get, and what items to select during the installation that are needed by Proxmox while also not installing things that aren't needed or perhaps conflict. To people like me, there's nothing "simply" about installing an OS.
I understand what you are saying, but I am afraid you will have hard time with PVE down the road without getting familiarised with Debian underneath in any case. To answer your question (if you want to give it a try), it is best to get "network install" (as it pulls the most recent packages for you on install) Debian for your architecture, typically "amd64" here:
https://www.debian.org/CD/netinst/
You treat it like any other installer, you can totally use a reference guide if you want to understand any single step:
https://www.debian.org/releases/bookworm/amd64/
But you can absolutely just "go with the defaults", except at the end during software selection, you will want to unselect desktop environment (so no GNOME), you will go with just (pre-selected) standard system utilities. This is literally the only piece of information that you need, everything else including disk partition you can leave on "guided" and use full disk.
NOTE: Debian installer actually allows to select full disk encryption in a single menu option, something PVE install cannot even do - is putting plain data on drives you may need to RMA or want to sell later something you really want to be doing?
And having the installer repeatedly fail isn't so simple either. I tried to install it at least half a dozen times before finally having someone respond to my post here.
Debian installer does not fail in most of the cases the PVE one does.
And even then they didn't explain how I was supposed to use the workaround until the second or third set of questions.
And they keep doing this to everyone, all over again, wasting their time as well as yours. If you were to use the Debian installer, you would only need to know to not install desktop environment (not that I think it would break something, it's just completely unnecessary).
Again, what's "simple" to an experienced Linux user isn't as "simple" to some of the rest of us. I expect an installer on a clean system to work.
To this, the response is basically that you are not the target market. I am not saying this, I actually suspect you are, otherwise there would not be all the bell and whistles, but if you were e.g. regular homelab subscriber even, that does not really justify the cost/benefit calculation.
If you are not a subscriber, you are effectively a tester (running on the less tested repository) and you will eventually at some point need troubleshooting issues in the terminal and issue lots of unfamiliar commands and not be enjoying it at all.
I just want to say that it is not my intention to rile you up, or make you feel like it's not for you, but I simply called the things as they are - they are not fixing it for the use case described and you will get more intimate with the command line more than you want on the no-subscription repository, eventually. It is only because I can tell they are not doing it, I simply concluded they might as well not be shipping a broken product.
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I hear what you're saying and I understand. I've been using Proxmox for many years now and I don't think I'm that much of a non-typical user. I'm a small business owner trying to get by in a cruel world. While I'm maybe not as much of a noob as indicated in my message, I do consider myself to be far from a Linux expert. I mostly survive Linux by doing a lot of Googling. I love Linux but I can't spend my time there when I have a business to try to keep alive.But you can absolutely just "go with the defaults", except at the end during software selection, you will want to unselect desktop environment (so no GNOME), you will go with just (pre-selected) standard system utilities. This is literally the only piece of information that you need, everything else including disk partition you can leave on "guided" and use full disk.
And they keep doing this to everyone, all over again, wasting their time as well as yours. If you were to use the Debian installer, you would only need to know to not install desktop environment (not that I think it would break something, it's just completely unnecessary).
To this, the response is basically that you are not the target market. I am not saying this, I actually suspect you are, otherwise there would not be all the bell and whistles, but if you were e.g. regular homelab subscriber even, that does not really justify the cost/benefit calculation.
If you are not a subscriber, you are effectively a tester (running on the less tested repository) and you will eventually at some point need troubleshooting issues in the terminal and issue lots of unfamiliar commands and not be enjoying it at all.
I just want to say that it is not my intention to rile you up, or make you feel like it's not for you, but I simply called the things as they are - they are not fixing it for the use case described and you will get more intimate with the command line more than you want on the no-subscription repository, eventually. It is only because I can tell they are not doing it, I simply concluded they might as well not be shipping a broken product.
Maybe I'm not the target audience so maybe I don't matter. You may be right about that but I sure like the software and want to continue using it. For me the cost savings in additional hardware and the SUPER easy backups of Windows systems is really what makes Proxmox rock. The backups are far superior to any Windows backup ever ever seen. It's the _only_ Windows backup that I have any confidence in actually. All my VMs are Windows.
Your first comment gives some insight into the problem. Earlier you'd talked about "simply" installing Debian but in this response there's that "oh by the way" moment when you mention not accepting _all_ the defaults because we don't need a GNOME. While logically obvious, it points out that "simply" again wasn't so simple because the person would need to know which defaults not to install.
And yes, I'm a subscriber. I wasn't when I first started using Proxmox but as I learned its value I knew I wanted to support the project so I subscribed. I'm not thrilled with the per core model system but that's off topic. The point is I love the software. I tell all my propeller-head friends about it. And I plan to use it for as long as my business stays alive. And I realize they'll never fix the installer on the current version, and maybe never, but I still wish they would. It seems like it would be an easy fix.
I hear what you're saying and I understand. I've been using Proxmox for many years now and I don't think I'm that much of a non-typical user. I'm a small business owner trying to get by in a cruel world. While I'm maybe not as much of a noob as indicated in my message, I do consider myself to be far from a Linux expert.
I personally think you ARE a typical user. Of course I do not know what brings more revenue, i.e. all the community subscriptions combined OR the rest. Someone might think it's obviously the latter, but I am not. The support subscriptions also include, well, support. So I would imagine Proxmox are mostly influenced by the biggest pain on their support tickets.
I also find it strange, they rather keep staff replying multiple times on the same, in the same manner (summarized in this thread). Some might blame the next person not searching on the forum well enough before asking. All the "very old or very new hardware" excuse I do not buy either.
Maybe I'm not the target audience so maybe I don't matter. You may be right about that but I sure like the software and want to continue using it.
Just to be clear, this is the feel I got from some of the threads where people ask for this or that, why it is not more user friendly. I do not suffer from the "this is enterprise software that needs a trained engineer" camp fallacy. I think I am actually quite critical, to the point someone might think I am here to bash the product. I think your criticism (and that of many others) is on the spot with the installer.
But I want to point out that the Bugzilla post:
https://bugzilla.proxmox.com/show_bug.cgi?id=4230#c36
Does not seem to have any comments from anyone regarding non-server hardware, while it is obvious e.g. anyone with NVIDIA must be in the same camp. I would like to think that if everyone who encountered this issue also adding +1 to a BZ post, maybe it would get the priorities on track.
But at the same time, when I e.g. file a trivial BZ regarding close-to-zero-effort change on the installer:
https://bugzilla.proxmox.com/show_bug.cgi?id=5670
No one from Proxmox even acknowledges it. In that sense, I have hard time adopting the this-thing-rocks feel.
Now if anyone finds this thread in the future, I would just like to summarise the takeout from me is that:
1. PVE installer is and will remain lacking. It has trouble with hardware that other installers do not.
2. PVE installer does not support any full-disk-encryption whatsover, which makes it completely unusable for a professional deployment.
For those reasons, it might be simply more beneficial for any user to be installing Debian and then PVE. Proxmox could streamline their on-top-of-debian install into a script. If I do it, you will not use it because I am just a stranger on the Internet.
What I can do is help people fast-track the whole nomodeset-etc nonsense (they end up with broken result of the install that needs more fixing) and just get on with the Debian installer.
I wish Proxmox recognised they cannot (afford the resources to) make a good installer and sacrifice their marketing a bit to make it a Debian hypervisor. Then everything would be simpler. The instructions for install could be:
1. Install Debian, unselect desktop environment (or they can make unattended one, this is beyond scope here)
2. Install PVE (via single script)
Your first comment gives some insight into the problem. Earlier you'd talked about "simply" installing Debian but in this response there's that "oh by the way" moment when you mention not accepting _all_ the defaults because we don't need a GNOME. While logically obvious, it points out that "simply" again wasn't so simple because the person would need to know which defaults not to install.
This is true, but I would dare to compare this to e.g. if someone wants MS Word, they get told to obtain Windows OS first, they won't complain Office is not an OS and why should they familiarise themselves with an OS, they only want to print a couple of documents.
And yes, I'm a subscriber. I wasn't when I first started using Proxmox but as I learned its value I knew I wanted to support the project so I subscribed. I'm not thrilled with the per core model system but that's off topic.
This is indeed another topic, but then they do not want to discuss it either:
https://forum.proxmox.com/threads/subscription-cost-disappointment.113205/page-3
My takeout is that community subscriptions really make a big portion of the income, so all the homelab people looked down on the forum actually ARE the target audience.
The point is I love the software. I tell all my propeller-head friends about it. And I plan to use it for as long as my business stays alive. And I realize they'll never fix the installer on the current version, and maybe never, but I still wish they would. It seems like it would be an easy fix.
I would prefer more transparency in answering people on why something is not getting addressed. It's a major issue with Proxmox.
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