ZFS vs Raid FOR 1-2 Virtual machines

[ane]

Hello

I manage proxmox server in production for some SMB. All of them have the same configuration. HP Gen9 DL180, p440 and RAID 10 with ext4 filesystem. All of them have been working with ot big issues apart from some performance issues

Now I need to set up a new server for another company. They will need to use Windows server for file storage and CAD software license server only. I was thinking about install proxmox to give them more expandability for future. Probably an AD server, as windows comes with 2 VM licenses.

First of all I am not sure if install proxmox will be better than a physical windows server for their actual needs. I have had some performance lacks with proxmox and windows in some servers recently.

Apart from that, I was thinking about to use ZFS and avoid that way, the RAID controller. I feel confident with ext4 but I have not had any chance to try and learn ZFS. Will be very risky to install ZFS with no experience in a production server? I have google about all the benefits of ZFS but I know that ext4 is a rock solid.

Thanks

 

[wolfgang]

Will be very risky to install ZFS with no experience in a production server?

No ZFS is easy to manage, and the worst case is your performance is terrible.

but I know that ext4 is a rock solid.

ZFS is rock solid too, but the most people who start with ZFS use the classic approach with HW Raid card and less memory.
ZFS needs memory and no Raid card and if you like to accelerate the small sync block write speed invest in a ZIL device (small, fast enterprise SSD).

I host from my sister a Windows2018R2 MSSQL 2014 on Proxmox with ZFS over 3 Years, and I never had problems.

But why you test this setup a day long and see if it work as intended?
If not you can order the HWRaid and build your standard setup.

 

[ane]

Hi!

Thanks for the reply. I can have one week as test with ZFS. What type of zfs raid do you recomend me for 2 windows virtual machines?
RAID10 and that ZIL that you mention?

Thanks

 

[wolfgang]

ZFS has the same pattern as normal raids.

Raid 10 for max performance in reading and writing (recommended for virtualization).
Raid Z1 or Z2 (Raid 5,6) slow writing, better disk usage, more system (cpu) usage and acceptable read.

For the ZIL device, the Intel Optane is perfect. low latency and very hight 4k write.
https://ark.intel.com/products/125296/Intel-Optane-SSD-800P-Series-58GB-M_2-80mm-PCIe-3_0-3D-Xpoint

 

[alexskysilk]

Hello

I manage proxmox server in production for some SMB. All of them have the same configuration. HP Gen9 DL180, p440 and RAID 10 with ext4 filesystem. All of them have been working with ot big issues apart from some performance issues

Now I need to set up a new server for another company. They will need to use Windows server for file storage and CAD software license server only. I was thinking about install proxmox to give them more expandability for future. Probably an AD server, as windows comes with 2 VM licenses.

First of all I am not sure if install proxmox will be better than a physical windows server for their actual needs. I have had some performance lacks with proxmox and windows in some servers recently.

Apart from that, I was thinking about to use ZFS and avoid that way, the RAID controller. I feel confident with ext4 but I have not had any chance to try and learn ZFS. Will be very risky to install ZFS with no experience in a production server? I have google about all the benefits of ZFS but I know that ext4 is a rock solid.

Thanks

Couple of questions:
1. What are your painpoints that you think ZFS can fix? As @wolfgang mentioned, zfs is ram hungry and will underperform a hw raid in low ram conditions. looking at your standard config zfs is not a good option because of the p440. Are you looking to fit your hardware loadout or are you trying to design the solution and then purchase hardware?
2. If all you're looking to accomplish is a windows server, nothing beats windows on metal; any abstraction layer can only slow it down. Sometimes there are good reasons for this tradeoff (HA, snapshots, replication, etc.) The solution should match your requirements.
3. Dont use ext4 in any case- it doesnt make sense to use a filesystem for vdisks. you'll use zfs or lvm extents, depending on whether you're using zfs or hw raid.

 

[ane]

Hi!

Related the first point, I dont have any huge painpoints in my current rigs, but I have been thinking about jumping to ZFS looking for all the benefits people says about it. I dont have the server yet, as I am looking to define the system before buy it. zfs (more ram) or default proxmox
(hardware raid).

I know that windows works much better on bare metal, because I have to migrate one proxmox windows+oracle server to physical server due to its very very low performance. The software (ERP) developers told us exit from that system.

For the ext4, it is not the default filesystem of proxmox? I have never use lvm, so I will investigate it.

 

[alexskysilk]

For the ext4, it is not the default filesystem of proxmox? I have never use lvm, so I will investigate it.

EXT4= file system. Even for Linux, there are other options.
LVM=Logical Volume manager. Think dynamic disks in Windows. The file system used will be dictated by the guest, eg NTFS for a windows guest.

ZFS is both an lvm and a file system, although its possible to use it just as an LVM if necessary.

 

[guletz]

I know that windows works much better on bare metal, because I have to migrate one proxmox windows+oracle server to physical server due to its very very low performance. The software (ERP) developers told us exit from that system.

I see many VM with kvm (and they have moved from bare metal hw to kvm), even with big DB (oracle included). But you need to tune your enviroment for your case.

 

[ane]

Hi! Guletz.

Yes, you are right. Probably I forget to tune some critical point that may cause the low perfromance over proxmox.

Thanks

 

[ane]

Hello. My customer need the server for this week, so having not enougth time to test the ZFS setup yet, I will go with the ext4 and LVM setup. I will try to install a ZFS rig this summer holidays.

My question is: I have ordered 4x 1,8tb 10k SAS disk and 2x 300gb 15k SAS disk. My intention was to isntall proxmox and 2 windows virutal machines on the 15k disk with raid 1 and make a raid10 with the 1,8tb 10k disk for storage.

Do you see optimal this setup or it would be better to have one big single raid with 4x or 6x 1,8tb 10k disks?
One virtual machine is for AD and the other for file server. CAD, Office, etc. for 20 users.

Thanks