Subscription cost disappointment

[Labersin]

the mental gymnastics some go through to justify why they should be given things for free is amazing....


for your 50 quid would you like 24x7x365 support available?

no, actually I was more thinking along the lines of one of the previous comments said about something like a forum badge of homelab supporter. For all I care the reward could be skins for proxmox or the forums or hell, just an automated email saying thanks.
I don't see why you had to jump to assuming I was trying to justify getting more for free. In 2 lines of shell script you can remove the nag, its out there if you search for it. so since it is so simple why would I need it to be a reward.

 

[reetp]

In my (particular) circumstance a measure of CPU grunt - say BogoMIPS or somesuch - rather than pure CPUs would have helped.

Both my unlicensed servers are less powerful, and do less, than my licensed one, but would require paying twice as much.....

That's the situation I was trying to think around.

Hey ho.

 

[Dunuin]

But this "license costs per socket" is the reason why you get these cheap old servers in the first place. Datacenters have to pay the very high license costs per socket so they want to get rid of the aging hardware early. Might be cheaper for them to just throw away two fine working dual socket servers with 32 core CPUs to get a single more modern dual socket board with 64 core CPUs so they just have to pay for 2 instead of 4 licenses.

 

[reetp]

But this "license costs per socket" is the reason why you get these cheap old servers in the first place. Datacenters have to pay the very high license costs per socket so they want to get rid of the aging hardware early. Might be cheaper for them to just throw away two fine working dual socket servers with 32 core CPUs to get a single more modern dual socket board with 64 core CPUs so they just have to pay for 2 instead of 4 licenses.

Though mine were second hand they were pretty new when I bought them, and not exactly cheap either!! They weren't out of a data centre!

But I do concur on the some of the reasons behind reducing CPU count in general.

 

[poetry]

This is crazy that people are complaining about the license of proxmox. You are basically getting everything for free and you would like to rip off proxmox even more. Shame on all of you that say you don't think like that but you do.

This mentality that you should get everything for free or you should never pay for license runs deep in the IT sector. My college wears the "stolen, never buy license" badge and tries to do everything he can to avoid paying for the license even illegal stuff like using other companies license where he should not. I really wish companies would punish people who abuse license agreements hard like deploy teams of lawyers and make sure that person that abuses the license gets jail time. I really don't see how you can change people's minds without that. It's too easy to steal or abuse a license without any consequences.

For example my college suggested that we should only buy one proxmox license and sync enterprise repository to our server and then use "our enterprise repository" for unlimited number of servers. I shut down that idea and my college was not happy about it.

I really do not understand how some people don't see how much work and time is needed to develop, support and maintain a product portfolio like proxmox offers. You really think it's so easy? Go try to do it and let's see how you will do.

We should shame people who try to act like they would like to pay but deep down they think they should get everything for free and more.

I got great support from proxmox team without even having a subscription. I suggested we should get a subscription for our proxmox servers but if things work just fine without it why should we pay for a subscription? That was the answer when I suggested that we should pay from our management. They wear the same badge as my college so they are basically beyond help. You vote with your money so my mentality is that I pay for companies that do good work. I don't pay for companies that do bad work. If everyone did the same bad companies would just die.

Let's see what proxmox does in the future usually companies offer products for free until they get a big enough user base and then they switch the licensing model. I would not mind forcing my management to pay for license if things won't work without it. This is a hint to proxmox how they can get a lot more money if they need to. I am sure many people will cry about it but they will get over it. You are limiting improvement of your product by not getting more money and improving it more. Up to you how long is it sustainable what you are doing now by just giving it away for free. How many great engineers you can employ with paying them 0? It's probably 0.

 

[Dunuin]

I agree with you. Companies using just the no-subscription repo or mirroring the enterprise repo to only pay for one license is really sad. But this thread was about adding more options for people who don't create any profit by using PVE but still want to somehow support the Proxmox team but just can't afford the lowest subscription tier. So no one is to blame here, as they just asked for more options so they could spend some money instead of just using it for free.

 

[CanadaGuy]

I agree with you. Companies using just the no-subscription repo or mirroring the enterprise repo to only pay for one license is really sad. But this thread was about adding more options for people who don't create any profit by using PVE but still want to somehow support the Proxmox team but just can't afford the lowest subscription tier. So no one is to blame here, as they just asked for more options so they could spend some money instead of just using it for free.

I too have been at places who wanted to work their way around licensing terms. in Canada there is a number you can call to report corporate software licensing violations. I don’t know how much it is used though.

PVE is an amazing piece of software and I would recommend it in a heartbeat to someone to take the grunt work out of managing server infrastructure!

 

[reetp]

This is crazy that people are complaining about the license of proxmox.

You have totally misconstrued the conversation.

I really think you should go back and read *very carefully* what I - as original poster - have said.

Note I'm also a board member of a not for profit building an open source small linux server where I do most of my open source stuff, and we rely totally on donations.

I've also worked at other open source companies. I also run a normal company with my wife. I understand the issues intimately.

My point was there is a gap that should be considered to *encourage more money*.

I would not mind forcing my management to pay for license if things won't work without it

So, first, they are entitled to use it for free if they don't break the license terms. That's open source.

And second, for all your moralising, you are happy to work there, but lecture others? Hmmmmmm.

 

[reetp]

A second option I just thought of - I licence one server, and not the other (and no, I am not going to cheat the repos or whatever hacks people do)

It doesn't help if you only have one server with multiple CPUs and wanted to help a little.

It's all slightly nonsensical...... hey ho.

 

[CyberGaut]

This is crazy that people are complaining about the license of proxmox. You are basically getting everything for free and you would like to rip off proxmox even more. Shame on all of you that say you don't think like that but you do.

This mentality that you should get everything for free or you should never pay for license runs deep in the IT sector. My college wears the "stolen, never buy license" badge and tries to do everything he can to avoid paying for the license even illegal stuff like using other companies license where he should not. I really wish companies would punish people who abuse license agreements hard like deploy teams of lawyers and make sure that person that abuses the license gets jail time. I really don't see how you can change people's minds without that. It's too easy to steal or abuse a license without any consequences.

For example my college suggested that we should only buy one proxmox license and sync enterprise repository to our server and then use "our enterprise repository" for unlimited number of servers. I shut down that idea and my college was not happy about it.

I really do not understand how some people don't see how much work and time is needed to develop, support and maintain a product portfolio like proxmox offers. You really think it's so easy? Go try to do it and let's see how you will do.

We should shame people who try to act like they would like to pay but deep down they think they should get everything for free and more.

I got great support from proxmox team without even having a subscription. I suggested we should get a subscription for our proxmox servers but if things work just fine without it why should we pay for a subscription? That was the answer when I suggested that we should pay from our management. They wear the same badge as my college so they are basically beyond help. You vote with your money so my mentality is that I pay for companies that do good work. I don't pay for companies that do bad work. If everyone did the same bad companies would just die.

Let's see what proxmox does in the future usually companies offer products for free until they get a big enough user base and then they switch the licensing model. I would not mind forcing my management to pay for license if things won't work without it. This is a hint to proxmox how they can get a lot more money if they need to. I am sure many people will cry about it but they will get over it. You are limiting improvement of your product by not getting more money and improving it more. Up to you how long is it sustainable what you are doing now by just giving it away for free. How many great engineers you can employ with paying them 0? It's probably 0.

Poetry, you are totally wrong on this and mis-interperting the OP comments based on your apparent poor work situation.
1 Everyone so far in this post agrees that Proxmox is awesome, and the forum support is great, and those that have licence appear to also agree the direct support is Awesome.
2 the question raised was how can a lowly home user contribute at a lower level then full licence.
3 some people did make some brainstorming suggestions of ways to recognise those that do get a "Home Licence", but so far no one made any suggestion that was in any way asking for more free stuff.

As a basic home user, I love Proxmox, I am learning slowly (very slowly but that is me) and playing with my old commercial HW. If I were to licence it would just be an expensive donation, I would never use the support, as my use and problems are not at that level. (and 2 systems x2 CPU + a third on old PC for cluster would be $600 a year) pretty heavy for me and my Plex and Pi and TrueNAS and MineOS)

To the note above that they had a donation button and it was not used. Too Bad, but with the growth of on line support through Patreon, there is growing acceptance of paying what you can.
I would personally be interested in a very low tier that just let me make a regular donation, or maybe gave me a flag in the forum and allowed me to pay a bit.
However I see how some people could (would) decide that they pay their $5 a month so Proxmox owes them something. So it becomes more hassle then it is worth. Too bad.
I was asking the same question as the OP and hoping to find a solution. I guess I will just have to licence my single CPU every other year...

 

[LnxBil]

I would never use the support, as my use and problems are not at that level.

... and on the lowest (community) subscription level, you would have none.

 

[dragon2611]

The only one I think is a bit off is the community support level for PBS.

 

[RolandK]

>and found that both are older units and they both had 2 CPUs, although neither really use all the resources by a long way.

then you should consider remove one CPU instead of wasting energy.

who needs dual-socket/cpu server @home ? we don't even run dual-socket in our makerspace, and there runs a LOT on that machine. and we don't even pay for the energy there (as it's included in the contract)

 

[eXtremeSHOk]

Licensing by core count would be more fair.
4x8core cpus vs 2x16core vs 1x32core cpu should have the same license cost.

An example would be replace the socket count metric with a cpu core count metric, in multiples of 32cores.(or a lower/higher number)

My point is a 128core single cpu server should not cost the same as a 2x 8core server and should not be cheaper than the 2x8core.

 

[Dunuin]

who needs dual-socket/cpu server @home ? we don't even run dual-socket in our makerspace, and there runs a LOT on that machine. and we don't even pay for the energy there (as it's included in the contract)

You will also lose half of you PCIe slots then. This might be a bigger problem. The main point why I needed to buy a Supermicro X10SRL-F/X10SRi-F and not a way cheaper X10DRi-F with removed second CPU. As I need at least 6 PCIe slots, and without the second CPU only 3 of 6 PCIe slots would be usable.

 

[dylanh333]

I know I'm repeating what a lot of others have already said, but I'm also in a situation where I'm happily using Proxmox for free at home, I want to financially contribute, but the lowest subscription tier is still too much for me.
I don't particularly want any extra benefits like support or the enterprise repo. - just the option to donate and give back to the Proxmox devs. with what I can afford.
€95/yr/CPU works out to be ~AUD$147/yr, which at the moment with all the other expenses I have - is a bit much for me.

 

[chrcoluk]

We had a donate button for many years. The only problem was that nobody pressed it!

Add it back and maybe some will use it now? A donate button doesnt cost anything. So even if it isnt used its no harm having one.

I agree with the OP, I was to contribute something as a thanks, but the official license methods are too much up front. I am even ok with the nag staying and using the no subscription repo, so not bothered about having an actual license, just want to donate a small amount every few months.

 

[bbgeek17]

A quick reminder - if one feels generous and thankful, and wants to help, but unable to pay for the license - Proxmox is built on top of a few wonderful technologies, such as KVM, LXC, Debian, Linux Kernel, etc.

You can support them with as little as you can afford, which will be an indirect support for Proxmox:
https://opensource.org/donate
https://www.linuxfoundation.org/about/donate
https://www.fsf.org/

 

[RolandK]

regarding donation button and no option to easily

We had a donate button for many years. The only problem was that nobody pressed it!

@dietmar , was it with paypal option or how did that work?

i'm also a little bit curious, why the only way to support proxmox with money is cpu subscription.

we are using proxmox in our makerspace for example and we like to (and do) support opensource.
i'm sure it will be easy to argue and to conclude a donation to proxmox, but it will be a lot harder to discuss with a dozen people why they should pay a 1 cpu subscription for an underpowered little device running proxmox, which does cost less (in hardware and in yearly energy cost) then the 1 year cpu subscription. it just doesn't "pay off" and i'm also against using pve-enterprise repo for that device, even tough it's running important services for that makerspace ( because using pve-no-subscription and providing testing and feedback capability is a donation, too)

 

[Dunuin]

Add it back and maybe some will use it now? A donate button doesnt cost anything. So even if it isnt used its no harm having one.

Not sure if that is actually true. Influencers and media creators are always complaining that the services will keep 10-70% of the donations as a fee.
Even paypal donations got a fee, but as far as I understand not that high and you pay nothing if no one is using it?