PLEASE make ProxMox based on something like Devuan
- Thread starter amachils
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Rather shortsighted attitude tbh...... Some would say even stupid, but not me offcourse.......
Regards,
Angelo
I think you ignore the fact that it is extremely hard and really much work to make system startup right/correct ...
I've been a professional Unix/Linux/BSD sysadmin for more than 20 years, so I think I can judge these things 'pretty' well. But you seem to ignore that something like systemd goes against everything a *nix based system should be about, also ignoring the fact that it's still (very) buggy and that bugs are _not_ picked up as they should. Bugs that have been around for years keep coming back with every couple of versions.
But this is not supposed to be a rant against systemd, just see it as a warning that beeing depended on something like this, is a VERY bad idea! But okay, it's your (bad) choice, my choice will be NOT to renew my paid subscriptions in the future.
Regards,
Angelo Machils
But this is not supposed to be a rant against systemd, just see it as a warning that beeing depended on something like this, is a VERY bad idea! But okay, it's your (bad) choice, my choice will be NOT to renew my paid subscriptions in the future.
Regards,
Angelo Machils
AFAIK all major distribution moved to systemd. So this is not really my (bad) choice. Instead, this decision was taken by Debain, Redhat, ArchLinux, Suse and most other distributions ...
You 'build' ProxMox, so you made the choice, it's quite easily possible in Debian to use OpenRC instead of systemd. So please don't hide behind 'everybody else is jumping in the river, so should I'......
And 'most others' is quite far from being the truth.....
Regards,
Angelo Machils
And 'most others' is quite far from being the truth.....
Regards,
Angelo Machils
I am a bit lost in your post. Do you just want to complain or do you have any further question? Proxmox VE is based on systemd and there is no plan to change it.
Hello,
Well, there are _quite_ a few more than that, and most others offer a choice. And _that_ was what my original request was about, give your (paying) customers a choice. But apparently the ProxMox developers don't understand what the basis of a *nix system actually are.
Regards,
Angelo
i want to chime in here.
we chose debian as a basis distribution (among other reasons), because it is stable, is (often) good tested, and has a big user base.
to change to devuan (or even only switch systemd with operc) would mean we lose those advantages over night (i can see that devuan is still beta, also i would guess that the number of users is much smaller than that of debian)
there is much more to do than simply changing the init system. systemd takes also care of cgroups/namespaces, etc. all of the 3rd party packages we include (ceph for example) would have to be customized to run under openrc etc.
this makes the decision to stay with debian not really hard
what you said here does not make sense (in my opinion) in this situation.
we chose debian as a basis distribution (among other reasons), because it is stable, is (often) good tested, and has a big user base.
to change to devuan (or even only switch systemd with operc) would mean we lose those advantages over night (i can see that devuan is still beta, also i would guess that the number of users is much smaller than that of debian)
there is much more to do than simply changing the init system. systemd takes also care of cgroups/namespaces, etc. all of the 3rd party packages we include (ceph for example) would have to be customized to run under openrc etc.
this makes the decision to stay with debian not really hard
Since the transition to systemd (as default, as stated it's very easy to switch) Debian has been _far_ from stable as it used to be. Just ask any Debian admin who has experience enough. Devuan is Debian, just without the systemd and with openrc to keep the user from doing the 'heavy lifting' themselves.
Just because systemd has it's finger in everything, it's a bad choice. If it breaks (and it does regularly), it breaks everything. On *nix systems an application does one thing and does it well. Systemd is supposed to be an init system, but more often than not, can't even do that properly. Example Version 230 brought back a really old bug where the system won't shutdown, waits for about 1.5 minutes and than just kills everything. The patch for this bug? Just end everything at shutdown, properly or not. The systemd developers are far too busy to build everything in there except the kitchensink than to be bothered with cleaning up bugs and making it stable. This is not the kind of system _any_ responsible sysadmin would want to run his/her servers on.
And judging by Poettering trackrecord **couch** pulseaudio **couch**, it will be left for others to clean up the mess.
But like I said before, this wasn't supposed to be a rant against systemd, just a request to have a more stable alternative or better said: another choice besides the systemd-based one. But I see you have made your apps already dependent on systemd. I just hope this won't bite you in the .... rear end.
Regards,
Angelo Machils
Just because systemd has it's finger in everything, it's a bad choice. If it breaks (and it does regularly), it breaks everything. On *nix systems an application does one thing and does it well. Systemd is supposed to be an init system, but more often than not, can't even do that properly. Example Version 230 brought back a really old bug where the system won't shutdown, waits for about 1.5 minutes and than just kills everything. The patch for this bug? Just end everything at shutdown, properly or not. The systemd developers are far too busy to build everything in there except the kitchensink than to be bothered with cleaning up bugs and making it stable. This is not the kind of system _any_ responsible sysadmin would want to run his/her servers on.
And judging by Poettering trackrecord **couch** pulseaudio **couch**, it will be left for others to clean up the mess.
But like I said before, this wasn't supposed to be a rant against systemd, just a request to have a more stable alternative or better said: another choice besides the systemd-based one. But I see you have made your apps already dependent on systemd. I just hope this won't bite you in the .... rear end.
Regards,
Angelo Machils
Well you contradict yourself several times here.
One one hand you say switching is "very easy" but apparently needs "heavy lifting", so what is it?
Then you go on how you don't want to bash systemd but the very first post is "systemd is an unholy and unstable POS"
If this were true every admin of Debian, ubuntu, arch, redhat, suse etc. would be complaining, or not?
also if there are so much better and more stable alternatives, how come Debian chose systemd as default and devuan is still beta, with the feature freeze of stretch around the corner?
Edit: typo
One one hand you say switching is "very easy" but apparently needs "heavy lifting", so what is it?
Then you go on how you don't want to bash systemd but the very first post is "systemd is an unholy and unstable POS"
If this were true every admin of Debian, ubuntu, arch, redhat, suse etc. would be complaining, or not?
also if there are so much better and more stable alternatives, how come Debian chose systemd as default and devuan is still beta, with the feature freeze of stretch around the corner?
Edit: typo
"heavy lifting" was in quotes for a reason ...... Understand the sentence a little better now?
"Systemd is an unholy and unstable POS" is a short description of my opinion and not a rant.
A lot of admins have been and still ARE complaining about systemd, as are a lot of the people who have laid the foundations of LInux.
Debian only choose systemd with a very small margin and after something that was nothing less than a coup. And you find this a solid argument??
And this in fact seems to be the only argument of the Proxmox developers: because the other kids do it as well..... I have given real-life points (of my own experience and other admins) to be wary of systemd and one can find a LOT more without looking too hard.
But this serves no point what-so-ever. If you think my company is going to pay 1000 euro again just for access to so-called stable repos with only systemd as an option, you're thinking wrong.
Regards,
Angelos
"Systemd is an unholy and unstable POS" is a short description of my opinion and not a rant.
A lot of admins have been and still ARE complaining about systemd, as are a lot of the people who have laid the foundations of LInux.
Debian only choose systemd with a very small margin and after something that was nothing less than a coup. And you find this a solid argument??
And this in fact seems to be the only argument of the Proxmox developers: because the other kids do it as well..... I have given real-life points (of my own experience and other admins) to be wary of systemd and one can find a LOT more without looking too hard.
But this serves no point what-so-ever. If you think my company is going to pay 1000 euro again just for access to so-called stable repos with only systemd as an option, you're thinking wrong.
Regards,
Angelos
Again, systemd work for us, and saves us much work. IMHO it is much better than any other init system we had so far.
Also, we are open source, so you can add the necessary changes to support another init system yourself. Just send patches to the list, and we will see how many people will use them...
First, you behave like a troll, so I will close the thread after this post. Proxmox VE is very stable and trustworthy, because it is based on Debian and systemd.
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