Node crashes on migration of vm - host is PVE 8.0.4

I give up. I destroyed the cluster and turned off my secondary node. The command pvecm delnode even sent the inbound node to grave and by that the inbound node still thinks it is member of the cluster....
That's unfortunate. What you still could've tried is using a bandwidth limit and also booting an older kernel to see if it's a regression there.
 
Hi,

this is just not true for Proxmox VE. It does not have the same packaging guarantees as Debian. Repeating what I already said:
No, with Proxmox VE you can break your system when just using apt upgrade, just search the forum. Of course you should check which packages apt will remove, it will tell you.

I would take this opportunity (since this thread is already reached its end for the OP) to point out that:

1. I could not find this documented anywhere in:
https://pve.proxmox.com/wiki/Package_Repositories
It is the sole command used in major-to-major upgrade, but again this if anything implies the full-upgrade|dist-upgrade is necessary for this case only:
https://pve.proxmox.com/wiki/Upgrade_from_7_to_8

It's really A LITTLE STRANGE that even yourself could reference a Reddit post only regarding such an important distinction.

2. Considering PVE is based on Debian, even if PVE could be considered an appliance, and even if it does have DEDICATED COMMAND (which I was not aware of before), namely pveupgrade, but this is just a general wrapper around dist-upgrade, which of course will proceed to pull packages from all repos, not just PVE's - this is at the least mind-boggling, i.e. hypervisor that can have itself broken if run with the "safe" apt upgrade.

3. I do not even know where to start, if to consider the plain wrapper a logical bug, or if minor-to-minor upgrade require packages to be removed a bug in itself, or if to ask what is the logic behind major vs minor distinction in PVE's world.

4. Debian-based distributions seem to go the opposite way (in terms of being extra safe with apt upgrade, e.g. Ubuntu has even phased upgrades), i.e. they do not even dare to roll out packages to everyone at once to avoid a disaster, let alone remove packages. In fact, if running a standard "safer" upgrade command can ruin a hypervisor, why is that command not e.g. patched.

Given all of the above, I would suggest (at least some of the following):
a) update the PVE docs
b) improve the PVE wrapper (to only pull PVE and dependencies strictly)
c) patch a standard Debian command (I cannot believe this would be considered sane in any situation)

Now that I think of it, I wonder if e.g. having e.g. unattended-upgrades to pull just security related patches will not break PVE all of a sudden too (I guess not, but this finding did not instill confidence).
 
I expected this kind of answer*, of course I had seen this same place quoted in the Reddit thread at the top.

Two issues with this:

5. What is the wrapper made for when even official PVE docs do not make use of it?

6. When I make a car that has left and right indicator controls reverse to the whole rest of the industry (this was not answered above conveniently, why), sure I can document it by a regular sentence telling the driver to use it the opposite way, or knowing how odd my design is, I could emphasize it at least in bold with explicit remark why (not in a Reddit thread, but in the official docs).

*It's very strange how time is spent on forum proving to everyone everything is good, when the same time (i.e. typing out one sentence) could have been invested into the docs improvement (at the least).

Now I am fully aware I have not paid for any support or anything like that to demand answers to the rest of the questions, but since already replying to me, is there really no good answers to the rest?
 

There's huge inconsistency how one can perceive PVE docs quality. On one hand, you had omitted to mention this odd behaviour explicitly, which would owe any (even potential serious customer) an explanation, on another you qoute yourself a comprehensive authoritative source on Bullseye [1], where in Ch. 6.2.3 "System Upgrade" one can find the following:

Regular upgrades are recommended, because they include the latest security updates. To upgrade, use apt upgrade, apt-get upgrade or aptitude safe-upgrade (of course after apt update).
...
For more important upgrades, such as the change from one major Debian version to the next, you need to use apt full-upgrade. With this instruction, apt will complete the upgrade even if it has to remove some obsolete packages or install new dependencies. This is also the command used by users who work daily with the Debian Unstable release and follow its evolution day by day. It is so simple that it hardly needs explanation: APT's reputation is based on this great functionality.
(emphasis mine)

Now nothing in your answer indicates the PVE Subscription only repos provide any different options than having to run dist-upgrade, so should one infer the whole PVE is nightly build quality (after initial major release, before next one)?


[1] Raphaël Hertzog, Roland Mas., Freexian SARL The Debian Administrator's Handbook: Debian Bullseye from Discovery to Mastery, Freexian, 2021. ISBN 979-10-91414-20-3; as quoted, retrieved as ISBN: 979-10-91414-22-7
 
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There's huge inconsistency how one can perceive PVE docs quality. On one hand, you had omitted to mention this odd behaviour explicitly, which would owe any (even potential serious customer) an explanation, on another you qoute yourself a comprehensive authoritative source on Bullseye [1], where in Ch. 6.2.3 "System Upgrade" one can find the following:


...

(emphasis mine)

Now nothing in your answer indicates the PVE Subscription only repos provide any different options than having to run dist-upgrade, so should one infer the whole PVE is nightly build quality (after initial major release, before next one)?


[1] Raphaël Hertzog, Roland Mas., Freexian SARL The Debian Administrator's Handbook: Debian Bullseye from Discovery to Mastery, Freexian, 2021. ISBN 979-10-91414-20-3; as quoted, retrieved as ISBN: 979-10-91414-22-7
The difference between proxmox && debian, is that debian use a fixed packages list during the whole release.

Proxmox packages can have major upgrade during the major lifetime, with new depencies and newer packages.

apt-upgrade only upgrade already installed packages, but don't install any newer package (that's why it can break with proxmox, if an upgraded package depend a new package).
 
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The difference between proxmox && debian, is that debian use a fixed packages list during the whole release.

I understand that, but I posed questions 1-6 and you answered on number 3 partially.

Proxmox packages can have major upgrade during the major lifetime, with new depencies and newer packages.

If you meant "during [one release's lifetime]" then I take the issue of what is the purpose of calling one version a major when every "minor" upgrade is a major. This is still my question number 3 unanswered.

apt-upgrade only upgrade already installed packages, but don't install any newer package (that's why it can break with proxmox, if an upgraded package depend a new package).

There's the option to have something more clever done in the wrapper that does not do full-upgrade from all the repos. Otherwise why even have such a wrapper.

And of course my major issue is the lack of documentation of this (i.e. why were people wondering this in Reddit 2 years ago and now do again here)...
 
I deleted my prior comment. It was pedantic and didn't really help this thread. My bad, I want to be supportive of this community and that wasn't a supportive comment. Thanks for the commend @fiona

May I ask what you thought was wrong with your prior comment (if I remember about dist|full-upgrade distinction and that it is meant to be used differently on other Debian-based systems)? I just do not appreciate how it is considered to be somehow unsupportive being argumentative (as in, having points to reason with) when in the end the product may improve, or the docs may improve. In this case, having e.g. proper wrappers around upgrading?
 

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