Backup server in proxmox VM

[bbuster]

I have 2 Proxmox setups.

1 Is a production environment with 3 servers in a cluster, the second is a standalone server for backups, nas etc.

The specs are:

HPE ML350 Gen 9
2 x Intel E5-2667 v3
128GB memory
2 x 1,92tb samsung enterprise ssd

Since these specs seem to be overkill for just a proxmox backup server, i want to share these resources with DNS server, Nas (will be on seperate hdd storage) and Windows 10 / Windows 11 for testing etc.

I think 4 cores and 16gb memory will be sufficient for Proxmox Backup server (right?)
The issue is the storage size. I don't exactly know how much space i need for the backups. I have about 5 ubuntu vm's which i need to backup, but i don't know what the future will bring.

If i give the Proxmox Backup server 100gb storage, will i be able to expand this later safely?
Will every backup of my vm be the full size, or only the changes? (like Synology Hyper backup?)

I am running proxmox backup server now to quickly move vm's from 1 server to another with just 20gb (because it was just to transfer vm's and not as a real backup solution), but i was unable to expand the filesystem. The proxmox backup server couldn't start because it couldn't find the lvm storage anymore.

What is the best solution for this?

 

[weehooey-bh]

I think 4 cores and 16gb memory will be sufficient for Proxmox Backup server (right?)

You did not mention the VM storage being backed up or any details about workloads on your production cluster, so determining the resources needed for the Proxmox Backup Server (PBS) would be a guess.

You can run PBS in PVE as a VM, which seems like what you are thinking about doing. If you do that, you will have a lot of flexibility.

will i be able to expand this later safely?

If you configure the 2 x 1.92TB drives with ZFS you will have the flexibility to change your storage configuration.

Proxmox recommends SSDs for PBS because of the high IOPS. When storing a backup, it creates a lot of small files. Maintenance and restore activities also benefit from more IOPS.

Will every backup of my vm be the full size, or only the changes?

Every backup is a full backup. However, each backup point is broken into small "chunks" and those chunks are deduplicated. So, you have full backups but they only use the space of a full backup plus incremental changes -- without the fragility of traditional incremental backups.

 

[bbuster]

You did not mention the VM storage being backed up or any details about workloads on your production cluster, so determining the resources needed for the Proxmox Backup Server (PBS) would be a guess.

You can run PBS in PVE as a VM, which seems like what you are thinking about doing. If you do that, you will have a lot of flexibility.



If you configure the 2 x 1.92TB drives with ZFS you will have the flexibility to change your storage configuration.

Proxmox recommends SSDs for PBS because of the high IOPS. When storing a backup, it creates a lot of small files. Maintenance and restore activities also benefit from more IOPS.



Every backup is a full backup. However, each backup point is broken into small "chunks" and those chunks are deduplicated. So, you have full backups but they only use the space of a full backup plus incremental changes -- without the fragility of traditional incremental backups.

It is difficult to explain the workloads on my production cluster.
I have 3 identical servers with:

2 x Xeon E5-2680 v4 per server
384gb memory per server
4 x 1.92tb per server (HPE SSD's)

the cluster is linked via 10gbe (point to point) and the storage is ceph

The vm's are ubuntu web applications.

The backup server has a hardware raid controller (p440 if i am correct) so the 2 ssd's are in raid1 configured (mirrored)

 

[weehooey-bh]

2 x Xeon E5-2680 v4 per server
384gb memory per server
4 x 1.92tb per server (HPE SSD's)

With those resources, if you are planning to use most for VMs and LXCs you will need more storage on the PBS. Without knowing more, I would plan to dedicate the G9 to PBS and get more storage. With (4 x 1.92 TB) x 3 in Ceph you will have roughly 7.68TB of usable storage and at 50% you will have about 4TB of data to backup.

Backing up 4TB of data, you will need at least 8TB of usable storage. Depending on the rate of change of the data being backed up and your retention, you might need even more. Of course, this is making a lot of assumptions. YMMV.

The vm's are ubuntu web applications.

Web apps themselves tend not to use much space, but the databases backing them can. 4TB of just web apps would be a lot of web apps.

The backup server has a hardware raid controller (p440 if i am correct) so the 2 ssd's are in raid1 configured (mirrored)

In this configuration, you would get 1.92TB of usable storage. Certainly enough to get started. You should be able to add drives going forward.

backup server has a hardware raid controller (p440 if i am correct)

My preference is to use ZFS. I believe the P440ar can be set in HBA mode, so you can use it with ZFS. I strongly prefer ZFS, but using hardware raid with ext4 will work fine if you prefer hardware RAID.

 

[bbuster]

You mean use the backup server entirely for the Proxmox backup? Not putting DNS server, windows etc on the same server?
So the G9 Tower only for Proxmox Backup Server?

I will see if i can set the P440 as HBA. Can i add drives later and extend it without reformatting the drives in proxmox backup server?

 

[weehooey-bh]

You mean use the backup server entirely for the Proxmox backup?

Yes. From the information you have provided, you will have one of two scenarios:

#1 Light VM load

If your cluster has a light load (e.g., a few VMs, light compute/storage resource usage), you have lots of room for your DNS server, Windows, etc. The DNS, in particular, would be good on a cluster to improve availability.

With a light load, you can dedicate the G9 to PBS.

#2 Heavy VM load

On the other hand, if you fill the cluster and do not have the resources for those VMs, you will need to dedicate the G9 to PBS to get the space and performance necessary to back up a full cluster.

Can i add drives later and extend it without reformatting the drives in proxmox backup server?

Yes.

Hopefully, you have two other drives for the OS. If you do, install PBS on the OS drives. Then, create a pool with a ZFS mirrored vdev using the two 1.92TB SSDs. Later, you can pop in two more drives and add them as another mirrored vdev to the pool. A few commands and PBS will start using the extra space. Need, more? Add another vdev with two drives. Run out of bays? You can upgrade one vdev at a time (i.e. two drives).

If you do not have drives for the OS, you can start by putting everything on the two SSDs. Not ideal, but you can do it. Later, when you need more space, add a pool with a pair of drives in a mirrored vdev and move the backups to those drives (that pool). Then you can add more drives as mentioned above.

ZFS with mirrored vdevs is very flexible.

 

[bbuster]

I would prefer to keep the cluster only for production purposes. The other server is a backup server (and can later be expended with more storage if needed) but also be used for development vm's, windows for testing (since we are using macbooks to work on), local dns server (only for simplicity to reach devices with a fake domain name, not for production), and maybe to replace the synology in the near future.

I think the cluster is enormous overkill for now, so i don't think cpu / memory will exceed 10%, but it can get more in the future so i prefer to use it only for production and not local things.

 

[weehooey-bh]

I would prefer to keep the cluster only for production purposes. The other server is a backup server (and can later be expended with more storage if needed) but also be used for development vm's, windows for testing (since we are using macbooks to work on), local dns server (only for simplicity to reach devices with a fake domain name, not for production), and maybe to replace the synology in the near future.

I think the cluster is enormous overkill for now, so i don't think cpu / memory will exceed 10%, but it can get more in the future so i prefer to use it only for production and not local things.

Ah. Okay. Then, put PVE on the G9 and make PBS a VM. You will likely outgrow that setup, but it will get you started.

I would still look at ZFS on the G9. It will give you flexibility to or change.