Please Support BIOS RAID Again!

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kotakomputer

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May 14, 2012
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Jakarta, Indonesia
www.proxmoxindo.com
I've setup BIOS RAID 1 (come from my motherboard) but Proxmox 3 avoid it, instead Proxmox see 2 separated disk (Proxmox 2 support BIOS RAID). I think RAID is not part of Proxmox, so Proxmox should see it same as Debian, Windows, etc.

This will make Proxmox development faster, because they focus on VPS rather than RAID section. I've manually setup mdam with more than 100 Proxmox Servers w/o any issue. And one of the biggest Data Center in the world support Proxmox 3 with RAID 1 also!!!
 
bios raid is not mdraid. there was never a change in our raid policy from 1.x to 2.x and 3.x.

for mdraid, see http://pve.proxmox.com/wiki/Software_RAID - so if you are familiar with it, just use it.

in future, redundancy is provided by more reliable disks (enterprise class ssd) and filesystems (e.g. raid via btrfs)
 
Right ... that's why I said "BIOS RAID".
In short, Proxmox should not interference or change BIOS setup.

It doesn't. This is a problem with the hardware. Linux in general doesn't recognize fakeraid. It is the same on practically every distro. Software raid is much better than fakeraid.

Sent from my Nexus 5
 
Windows recognizes fake raid because that's what it was designed for. I don't understand why you refuse to acknowledge fake raid is not optimal. If your board dies you have to replace it with the exact same chipset

Sent from my Nexus 5
 
I don't understand why you refuse to acknowledge fake raid is not optimal.
For the recent motherboard it's hard to say that fake raid even s/w raid is not better than H/W Raid (the are so many debate topics so I don't add more). My point is Proxmox should not change/abandoned the motherboard setup. If Fake or Real RAID has been setup then Proxmox should see them (in this case Proxmox abandoned the Fake one, while accepted the Real one).

In short: Debian 7 & Windows accepted the motherboard setup, so does Proxmox should be.

If your board dies you have to replace it with the exact same chipset
That's why S/W raid is usually a nice choice compare to H/W raid. I have deploy many Proxmox Servers with s/w raid and its work rather then no raid at all.
 
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For the recent motherboard it's hard to say that fake raid even s/w raid is not better than H/W Raid (the are so many debate topics so I don't add more). My point is Proxmox should not change/abandoned the motherboard setup. If Fake or Real RAID has been setup then Proxmox should see them (in this case Proxmox abandoned the Fake one, while accepted the Real one).

In short: Debian 7 & Windows accepted the motherboard setup, so does Proxmox should be.


That's why S/W raid is usually a nice choice compare to H/W raid. I have deploy many Proxmox Servers with s/w raid and its work rather then no raid at all.

I would personally need someone threatning my life to run an enterprise solution like proxmox on top of something so unreliable such as fakeraid.... I had one experience in my life with motherboard raid, it was on windows XP a while back, created my array (RAID0), popped the OS and used it. Shutdown the machine at the end of the day, it nnever restarted. For whatever reason, the array got degraded and I lost everything. Other than learning the hard way to do backups, I've learnt that fakeraid is absolute CRAP.

How can a 10$ RAID chipset compare to a $500+ hardware controller??? Simply cant.

If fakeraid is SO important to you, then I doubt proxmox is the solution you need. Why not Windows on top of fakeraid + Virtualbox? With fakeraid, I doubt you are in a business application.

I just hope proxmox devs will never start supporting entry level (or amateurish) solutions like fakeraid, or proxmox's "enterprise" class designation will get lost in the process.

Over the years I have tried numerous computer technologies... Fakeraid is definitely one of the worst I came accross..

My 2 cents!
 
I would personally need someone threatning my life to run an enterprise solution like proxmox on top of something so unreliable such as fakeraid.... I had one experience in my life with motherboard raid, it was on windows XP a while back, created my array (RAID0), popped the OS and used it. Shutdown the machine at the end of the day, it nnever restarted. For whatever reason, the array got degraded and I lost everything. Other than learning the hard way to do backups, I've learnt that fakeraid is absolute CRAP.

How can a 10$ RAID chipset compare to a $500+ hardware controller??? Simply cant.

If fakeraid is SO important to you, then I doubt proxmox is the solution you need. Why not Windows on top of fakeraid + Virtualbox? With fakeraid, I doubt you are in a business application.

I just hope proxmox devs will never start supporting entry level (or amateurish) solutions like fakeraid, or proxmox's "enterprise" class designation will get lost in the process.

Over the years I have tried numerous computer technologies... Fakeraid is definitely one of the worst I came accross..

My 2 cents!

+1000

Sent from my Nexus 5
 
Not to be beating on a dead horse, but I agree in terms of "fake raid".

Good Hardware Controller definately preferred even if it is a cheap Adaptec.

Software Raid on Linux if you just do not have the cash (but then it can not be THAT important).

The main problem with "fake raid" ist that each model, each chip, each update on the chip can be different. So if you are trying to recover you are most likely (if not definately) lost.

At that point it is of no concern how much your recovery software or service costs ... if they have no clue HOW exaclty the Raid is set up they have no chance recovering anything.

I had a couple of cheap Dells with "fake raid" ... got them passed from the guy who had the job bevore my time. Both where the same Hardware but with differen bios updates. No chance at figuring out what the fake raid was or was not doing.

So it might be great in the first couple of years and great for your budget but in the end it is false security.
 
I would personally need someone threatning my life to run an enterprise solution like proxmox on top of something so unreliable such as fakeraid.... I had one experience in my life with motherboard raid, it was on windows XP a while back, created my array (RAID0), popped the OS and used it. Shutdown the machine at the end of the day, it nnever restarted clean up disks For whatever reason, the array got degraded and I lost everything. Other than learning the hard way to do backups, I've learnt that fakeraid is absolute CRAP.

How can a 10$ RAID chipset compare to a $500+ hardware controller??? Simply cant.

If fakeraid is SO important to you, then I doubt proxmox is the solution you need. Why not Windows on top of fakeraid + Virtualbox? With fakeraid, I doubt you are in a business application.

I just hope proxmox devs will never start supporting entry level (or amateurish) solutions like fakeraid, or proxmox's "enterprise" class designation will get lost in the process.

Over the years I have tried numerous computer technologies... Fakeraid is definitely one of the worst I came accross..

My 2 cents!

True....stay away from fakeraid! It just ruins everything.
 
... I had one experience in my life with motherboard raid, it was on windows XP a while back, created my array (RAID0), popped the OS and used it. Shutdown the machine at the end of the day, it nnever restarted. For whatever reason, the array got degraded and I lost everything ...

This is not true!
When RAID array degraded then you can simply recreated.

How can a 10$ RAID chipset compare to a $500+ hardware controller??? Simply cant.
You're wrong when you say $10 chipset. Soft RAID has no chipset! Soft RAID use the chip of M/B.
So, you must compare the M/B chip, like Xeon (Xeon 1245v2 $271) to your H/W Raid chip!

Over the years I have tried numerous computer technologies... Fakeraid is definitely one of the worst I came accross..
But you only have 1 experience, see your first paragraph.

You must understand that Soft/Rake RAID doesn't meaning "soft/fake"! Both Soft and Hard RAID using HARDWARE! The different is:
- Soft/Fake RAID: use HARDWARE from M/B
- Hard RAID: use HARDWARE from Additional Card

So, both RAID using REAL hardware!

I'm using Xeon 1245v2 + Intel Board and AMD FM2 A85600K + MSI/Biostar, so you can compare to your Card RAID.

Linux vs Proxmox vs Current M/B

All of Linux distributions ship with Soft RAID and All of M/B now also include BIOS RAID, even RAID 0/1/5/10. If this is a failed technology then market will reject them, but you see not. Again both RAID using real chip/hardware

Proven Technology
Show me how can you prove that Soft RAID is leaky than Card RAID. Again I'm using Xeon 1245v2 + Intel Board, please compare to you Card RAID.

Conclusion
1. Soft/Fake RAID doesn't meaning its doesn't use hardware/chip, Soft RAID use the power of CPU rather than chip on an Additional Card which use M/B slot, like PCI slot.
2. Both Soft and H/W RAID: use Software and Hardware part to make them run
 
Please note that the Data Center where Proxmox is the Biggest Implementation in the word supports Soft RAID!
See: http://forum.proxmox.com/threads/17752-Proxmox-VE-popular-in-OVH-Datacenters

The Soft RAID is native Linux feature but unfortunately DELETED by Proxmox team. Many vendors support Proxmox with Soft RAID, including me and of course the DC where Proxmox is the Biggest Implementation. So Proxmox simply enable it again and let us choose to use it or not. This feature available on Promox VE 2 and no complaint, also no complain on any Linux distros.

Again, this is native Linux distro feature, not Proxmox feature but Proxmox remove it.
 
Please note that the Data Center where Proxmox is the Biggest Implementation in the word supports Soft RAID!
See: http://forum.proxmox.com/threads/17752-Proxmox-VE-popular-in-OVH-Datacenters

The Soft RAID is native Linux feature but unfortunately DELETED by Proxmox team. Many vendors support Proxmox with Soft RAID, including me and of course the DC where Proxmox is the Biggest Implementation. So Proxmox simply enable it again and let us choose to use it or not. This feature available on Promox VE 2 and no complaint, also no complain on any Linux distros.

Again, this is native Linux distro feature, not Proxmox feature but Proxmox remove it.

Seems there is still confusion here. Our ISO installer never used softwareraid (mdraid). But all the tools (mdraid) needed are available in Debian - therefore a lot use it without problems as its a native Linux feature.

We at Proxmox never used it, we never added it, we never removed it. So basically, I am not sure what you complain here - what do I miss?
 
The thing is that mdraid supports many BIOS-configured softwaid setups out of the box. But mdraid by no means is relying on any of the BIOS functionality. It uses the raid signatures previously written on the individual disks by the BIOS. A new mdraid device is created when the kernel boots as usual and the in-kernel mdraid code takes over the RAID on the disks. Unfortunately I haven't been able to find a reliable source as what BIOS setups are supported, but AFAIK Intel-based ones (RST, IMSM) are, at least, are supported.

OTOH I can't understand why you're hell-bent on using BIOS-configured RAID. You can easily create an array on the command line or in the Debian installer. You can install PVE on top of a Wheezy installation, you're aware of that, right? You can clone such a system for mass installations if you need to. There're gazillions of tools for that.
 
Seems there is still confusion here. Our ISO installer never used softwareraid (mdraid). But all the tools (mdraid) needed are available in Debian - therefore a lot use it without problems as its a native Linux feature.

We at Proxmox never used it, we never added it, we never removed it. So basically, I am not sure what you complain here - what do I miss?

Support we have 2 disks and want to set up RAID 1:
- On Proxmox 2.x when we enable RAID from M/B BIOS then we will see the RAID, but since Proxmox 3.x the installer shows 2 separate disks. That's is why we can not use ISO installer again, but must do manual installation then add the RAID mdraid feature

Some Data Centers provide Proxmox ISO installer with RAID capability.

So, I hope Proxmox not ignore the RAID form motherboard as version Proxmox 2.x does. Or, maybe provides mdraid on Proxmox ISO installer (like some Data Centers do).
 
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