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Thread: Details about the new pve-no-subscripton repository

  1. #1
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    Default Details about the new pve-no-subscripton repository

    There are some doubts about the stability of the new pve-no-subscripton repository so I will explain the current release policy, the development- and build process of Proxmox VE in detail:

    • we are committed to 100 % open source: the whole development progress and all source code is always visible on https://git.proxmox.com
    • the communication between developers (internal and external) is happening on our mailing list (pve-devel)
    • all feedback from our users, from http://forum.proxmox.com or via bug reports via https://bugzilla.proxmox.com is taken into consideration and is moving step by step into the project
    • all new code is tested from our core developers and our community developers on their test servers and their test labs
    • all new deb packages go to the Proxmox VE test lab for testing and validation. There is no deb package in our repositories without going through these tests.
    • after all these this, we upload these debs to the pve-no-subscription repo (history shows that packages are quite stable at this stage)

    In short, pve-no-subscription is not a beta or unstable release repository. It is quite stable and well tested software and it is not the replacement of the old beta repo (pvetest). It is a replacement for the pve repository.

    And what is the difference to pve-enterprise? Why should you use pve-enterprise for production servers?

    The Proxmox VE Enterprise repository is an additional and NEW offering for our commercial subscribers, introduced with 3.1. It contains packages which are from proven quality as they are already in the pve-no-subscription repository, so these packages are additionally tested on thousands of servers worldwide.

    • We move packages from pve-no-subscription to pve-enterprise after some time if everything works as expected.
    • So basically the new pve-enterprise repository is expected to have less bugs than the pve-no-subscription repository

    To summarize, starting with 3.1 we provide additional value by improving the quality. There are NO plans to lower the quality of any repository, instead the opposite is happening.

    FAQ regarding pve-no-subscription

    I use the pve-no-subscription repo, can I submit bug reports?

    Yes, of course. Just provide all details about the bug.

    I need help in configuration and setup, where can I get help?
    Use the well-known community support channels. Forum and mailing list.

    __________________
    Best regards,

    Martin Maurer
    Proxmox VE project leader

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Details about the new pve-no-subscripton repository

    Are you going to provide access to sources of debian packages (deb-src) for enterprise users? It's an important issue for me. Sometimes i need make small changes in stable package and rebuild it. GIT source have no tags and that task more complicated than package rebuilding.

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    Default Re: Details about the new pve-no-subscripton repository

    Thank you, Martin.
    I can sleep well again. You saved my health.
    This should be added to wiki.
    Thanks again.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Details about the new pve-no-subscripton repository

    Quote Originally Posted by martin View Post
    There are some doubts about the stability of the new pve-no-subscripton repository so I will explain the current release policy, the development- and build process of Proxmox VE in detail:

    • we are committed to 100 % open source: the whole development progress and all source code is always visible on https://git.proxmox.com
    • the communication between developers (internal and external) is happening on our mailing list (pve-devel)
    • all feedback from our users, from http://forum.proxmox.com or via bug reports via https://bugzilla.proxmox.com is taken into consideration and is moving step by step into the project
    • all new code is tested from our core developers and our community developers on their test servers and their test labs
    • all new deb packages go to the Proxmox VE test lab for testing and validation. There is no deb package in our repositories without going through these tests.
    • after all these this, we upload these debs to the pve-no-subscription repo (history shows that packages are quite stable at this stage)

    In short, pve-no-subscription is not a beta or unstable release repository. It is quite stable and well tested software and it is not the replacement of the old beta repo (pvetest). It is a replacement for the pve repository.

    And what is the difference to pve-enterprise? Why should you use pve-enterprise for production servers?

    The Proxmox VE Enterprise repository is an additional and NEW offering for our commercial subscribers, introduced with 3.1. It contains packages which are from proven quality as they are already in the pve-no-subscription repository, so these packages are additionally tested on thousands of servers worldwide.

    • We move packages from pve-no-subscription to pve-enterprise after some time if everything works as expected.
    • So basically the new pve-enterprise repository is expected to have less bugs than the pve-no-subscription repository

    To summarize, starting with 3.1 we provide additional value by improving the quality. There are NO plans to lower the quality of any repository, instead the opposite is happening.

    FAQ regarding pve-no-subscription

    I use the pve-no-subscription repo, can I submit bug reports?

    Yes, of course. Just provide all details about the bug.

    I need help in configuration and setup, where can I get help?
    Use the well-known community support channels. Forum and mailing list.

    __________________
    Best regards,

    Martin Maurer
    Proxmox VE project leader
    Finally an explanation!!

    I asked you for a clarification before the release of version 3.1, I saw that it was an honest way of presenting things. it was too fishy.
    the only answer I got from you was:
    you will see later ....
    We have been able to avoid any confusion and uproar.

    It was the same problem MANDRIVA community and OepnEuacalyptus community.

    thank's

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Details about the new pve-no-subscripton repository

    Quote Originally Posted by shsm View Post
    Are you going to provide access to sources of debian packages (deb-src) for enterprise users?
    We will add a file with the git version to all packages, for example:

    # cat /usr/share/doc/pve-manager/SOURCE
    git clone git://git.proxmox.com/git/pve-manager.git
    git checkout dc0e9b0e326ea806c3e2cf94337ec40e7e11e09e
    Best regards,
    Dietmar

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    Default Re: Details about the new pve-no-subscripton repository

    Quote Originally Posted by dietmar View Post
    We will add a file with the git version to all packages, for example:# cat /usr/share/doc/pve-manager/SOURCE git clone git://git.proxmox.com/git/pve-manager.gitgit checkout dc0e9b0e326ea806c3e2cf94337ec40e7e11e09e
    Sounds good. When you planning to add that SOURCE file?

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Details about the new pve-no-subscripton repository

    Quote Originally Posted by dietmar View Post
    We will add a file with the git version to all packages, for example:

    # cat /usr/share/doc/pve-manager/SOURCE
    git clone git://git.proxmox.com/git/pve-manager.git
    git checkout dc0e9b0e326ea806c3e2cf94337ec40e7e11e09e
    Excellent. This and the clarification about the new repos were good news. Thanks for that.

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    Default Re: Details about the new pve-no-subscripton repository

    I don't see how this changes what has been discussed in the previous thread. The message about the lack of a subscription is always shown when logging in the first time. That's a load of bs. Based on what has been written on these two threads, it looks like Proxmox VE is yet another ESXi and XenServer. They both ask for subscriptions and they also show nag screens like the dialog box of Proxmox VE.

    I'm discussing with a few persons about starting a project as an alternative to Proxmox VE which is 100% OPEN SOURCE, not have git commit hashes hidden in the packages of the subscription packages.

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    Default Re: Details about the new pve-no-subscripton repository

    Quote Originally Posted by nopenopenope View Post
    They both ask for subscriptions and they also show nag screens like the dialog box of Proxmox VE.
    I was under impression that the nag screen is gone if you disable the enterprise repo and use only no-enterprise one. Isn't this the case?

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    Default Re: Details about the new pve-no-subscripton repository

    Quote Originally Posted by nopenopenope View Post
    I don't see how this changes what has been discussed in the previous thread. The message about the lack of a subscription is always shown when logging in the first time. That's a load of bs. Based on what has been written on these two threads, it looks like Proxmox VE is yet another ESXi and XenServer. They both ask for subscriptions and they also show nag screens like the dialog box of Proxmox VE.

    I'm discussing with a few persons about starting a project as an alternative to Proxmox VE which is 100% OPEN SOURCE, not have git commit hashes hidden in the packages of the subscription packages.
    Proxmox VE code is 100 % open source. If you write the opposite, its just wrong.

    A good start is reading the aGPLv3 terms - see http://www.gnu.org/licenses/agpl-3.0.html - most of our code is published under this license (but also other license are used, more info and details is included in the packages)
    Best regards,
    Tom

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    Default Re: Details about the new pve-no-subscripton repository

    Quote Originally Posted by tom View Post
    Proxmox VE code is 100 % open source. If you write the opposite, its just wrong.

    A good start is reading the aGPLv3 terms - see http://www.gnu.org/licenses/agpl-3.0.html - most of our code is published under this license (but also other license are used, more info and details is included in the packages)
    You're displaying a nag screen by default for everyone if they don't have a subscription. Your interpretation of "open source" is weird. You're just using everybody to test the packages which are supposed to go into the "stable" packages repository which can only be accessed by the people who have a subscription. Honestly, I'd donate money, but I'll never pay you for a subscription to get binaries. How is your project any different from XenServer?
    They're doing the exact same thing.

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    Default Re: Details about the new pve-no-subscripton repository

    Quote Originally Posted by nopenopenope View Post
    You're displaying a nag screen by default for everyone if they don't have a subscription. Your interpretation of "open source" is weird.
    It still is open source. If you want to remove that notification, just remove it from the source code. You're free to do so.

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    Default Re: Details about the new pve-no-subscripton repository

    Quote Originally Posted by shsm View Post
    Sounds good. When you planning to add that SOURCE file?
    This will be included in any new package we upload.
    Best regards,
    Dietmar

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    Default Re: Details about the new pve-no-subscripton repository

    Quote Originally Posted by nopenopenope View Post
    You're displaying a nag screen by default for everyone if they don't have a subscription.
    Yes. we promote our commercial services and Proxmox makes money. Thankfully enough that they can pay my salary every month so I can sit here and answers your posts. Almost every company is trying to make money by selling products and services. Without money, Proxmox VE would not exist.

    Quote Originally Posted by nopenopenope View Post
    Your interpretation of "open source" is weird.
    I don´t think so. For me it seems you do not understand what open source means, but it looks like you never read the license terms of AGPLv3 or you do not understand it.

    Quote Originally Posted by nopenopenope View Post
    You're just using everybody to test the packages which are supposed to go into the "stable" packages repository which can only be accessed by the people who have a subscription.
    Read again the release policy (top post). It seems you just want to prohibit us to offer extra services for our paying customers, which is strange for me.

    Quote Originally Posted by nopenopenope View Post
    Honestly, I'd donate money,
    we are asking for donations on http://pve.proxmox.com since around 5 years, did you ever donated there?

    Quote Originally Posted by nopenopenope View Post
    but I'll never pay you for a subscription to get binaries. How is your project any different from XenServer?
    They're doing the exact same thing.
    You do not have to pay for binaries if you do not want. You still have the pve-no-subscription repo. So you are making a lot of noise without a real reason.

    I am not an expert for XenServer but as far as I remember, they started with a closed source product with a limited free edition. Now it seems that they changed to a full open source license.
    Best regards,
    Tom

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    Default Re: Details about the new pve-no-subscripton repository

    Quote Originally Posted by tom View Post
    Yes. we promote our commercial services and Proxmox makes money. Thankfully enough that they can pay my salary every month so I can sit here and answers your posts. Almost every company is trying to make money by selling products and services. Without money, Proxmox VE would not exist.



    I don´t think so. For me it seems you do not understand what open source means, but it looks like you never read the license terms of AGPLv3 or you do not understand it.



    Read again the release policy (top post). It seems you just want to prohibit us to offer extra services for our paying customers, which is strange for me.



    we are asking for donations on http://pve.proxmox.com since around 5 years, did you ever donated there?



    You do not have to pay for binaries if you do not want. You still have the pve-no-subscription repo. So you are making a lot of noise without a real reason.

    I am not an expert for XenServer but as far as I remember, they started with a closed source product with a limited free edition. Now it seems that they changed to a full open source license.

    I understand that you need to make money out of this, but some people do expect to be able to use an open source piece of software without nag screens.


    Quote Originally Posted by tom View Post
    we are asking for donations on http://pve.proxmox.com since around 5 years, did you ever donated there?
    I've just installed Proxmox VE on the first box and I was planning on switching from ESXi. I've found out about it recently, not 3 years and not 5 years ago. I have donated money to a bunch of open source projects and I've also donated thousands of hours of work to open source projects.
    Why would I donate any money to Proxmox VE if I keep seeing a nag screen? No, sir, thank you very much, but I'm not going to donate just to see a nag screen every single time I log into the web interface. While I can afford to donate 100 euros once every 12 months, I can't afford to pay about 300-400 euros per year out of my own pocket to get stable KVM virtualization for a bunch of Linux VMs used to compile open source software.

    edit: Would you pay 400 euros / year just to get Proxmox VE on 4 older servers with dual socket dual core CPUs?
    Last edited by nopenopenope; 08-22-2013 at 04:26 PM.

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    Default Re: Details about the new pve-no-subscripton repository

    @OP: Thank you for the clarification. I'm sure that if we get it yesterday together with the release announcement, a lot of confusion cound have been avoided. All in all, the worst that happens to non-paying users is the nag screen. I personally can live with it - and naturally where budget permits, we're going to go for the enterprise repo.

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    Default Re: Details about the new pve-no-subscripton repository

    Quote Originally Posted by nopenopenope View Post
    I have donated money to a bunch of open source projects and I've also donated thousands of hours of work to open source projects. Why would I donate any money to Proxmox VE if I keep seeing a nag screen?
    If you had donated thousands of hours of work to open source projects, you would know how to remove your "nag screen" from proxmox and you would not be making that amount of noise here.My 2 cents.Personally, I don't mind the move proxmox made. Something needs to pay the bills. If the money isn't there, neither is the project.Thanks for the great work guys!

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    Default Re: Details about the new pve-no-subscripton repository

    Quote Originally Posted by frederic.ve View Post
    If you had donated thousands of hours of work to open source projects, you would know how to remove your "nag screen" from proxmox and you would not be making that amount of noise here.My 2 cents.Personally, I don't mind the move proxmox made. Something needs to pay the bills. If the money isn't there, neither is the project.Thanks for the great work guys!
    We've moved past a milestone - "cracking" open source software

    ....
    Last edited by nopenopenope; 08-22-2013 at 06:20 PM.

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    Default Re: Details about the new pve-no-subscripton repository

    Complain and edit all you want but don't post BS like that on their own forum. Its really disrespectful towards the developers in my opinion.
    Last edited by dietmar; 08-22-2013 at 06:33 PM. Reason: removed quote

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    Default Re: Details about the new pve-no-subscripton repository

    I don't think a nag-screen will increase the amount of subscribers, only get people pissed off. Just look at winzip...The message is quite clear though "This is commercial software . "

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    Default Re: Details about the new pve-no-subscripton repository

    yeah... a bit more respect. Everyone who is bothered in any way by this message can easily track it down and disable it. and it is not single way to do it, there are many. I think we are able even to compile pve-manager without this function. It does not mean we have to create step-by-steps in proxmox forums and it does not mean we are über-experienced programmers. One should be able just to read the code to "fix" this.
    PS
    it will return after pve-manager update.

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    Default Re: Details about the new pve-no-subscripton repository

    Quote Originally Posted by kgatan View Post
    Complain and edit all you want but don't post BS like that on their own forum. Its really disrespectful towards the developers in my opinion.
    I think you've missed the point, but it's OK, I don't expect you to understand.

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    Default Re: Details about the new pve-no-subscripton repository

    Quote Originally Posted by RRJ View Post
    yeah... a bit more respect. Everyone who is bothered in any way by this message can easily track it down and disable it. and it is not single way to do it, there are many. I think we are able even to compile pve-manager without this function. It does not mean we have to create step-by-steps in proxmox forums and it does not mean we are über-experienced programmers. One should be able just to read the code to "fix" this.
    PS
    it will return after pve-manager update.
    This was a matter of principle. What's the saddest thing: that they chose to be among the first people to put a nag screen on open source software, that they didn't even bother to make an appeal to the users and that they're hiding behind "oh, the money is for the technical support" while asking for money for the binaries OR that I've shown how simple it is to remove that nag screen by posting on their forum?

    Honestly, if putting nag screens on open source GPL and AGPL licensed software is the only way for you to make money, you have a serious problem. It pissed me off to the point that I will never ever donate anything, nor pay for any of their subscriptions. Does that help them? Does it help you? Does it help the community in any way?

    I'd be willing to give them money if this "pay us for tech support" bs with binaries and nag screens goes away.

    edit: Also, what reason would there be for me to contribute in any way to Proxmox VE's development by fixing some of the issues I've run into? It's not like the "free version" is in any way free, it keeps showing a NAG SCREEN EVERY SINGLE TIME you use it. Open source software with nag screens isn't making me trust the developers.
    Last edited by nopenopenope; 08-22-2013 at 06:41 PM.

  24. #24
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    Default Re: Details about the new pve-no-subscripton repository

    Quote Originally Posted by nopenopenope View Post
    It pissed me off to the point that I will never ever donate anything, nor pay for any of their subscriptions.
    You do not contribute anything anyways, so that is not really a big lost.
    Best regards,
    Dietmar

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    Default Re: Details about the new pve-no-subscripton repository

    Quote Originally Posted by dietmar View Post
    You do not contribute anything anyways, so that is not really a big lost.
    That's healthy! Everyone who's going to give you money should read this message.

    edit: You missed the whole part about me being willing to donate if you get rid of the nag screen. Either way, I wish you good luck with your "open source with nag screens".
    Last edited by nopenopenope; 08-22-2013 at 06:58 PM.

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    Default Re: Details about the new pve-no-subscripton repository

    Personally, now that I understand the whole repo setup, this change really is not that big of deal. Sure the nag screen is a little annoying, but its a single little popup. Its really not too bad. (Granted, I wish it was a little less often. Maybe once every 24 hours, or once per week would seem better IMO).

    As for the people who are at arms over this, why? Proxmox needs to make money somehow, and if a popup and cheaper paid plans are the way they want to go, so be it.

    Maybe proxmox should have a "donation" package, so if you donate X amount, you can enter a code that just disables the popup...

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    Default Re: Details about the new pve-no-subscripton repository

    Quote Originally Posted by nopenopenope View Post
    edit: You missed the whole part about me being willing to donate if you get rid of the nag screen. Either way, I wish you good luck with your "open source with nag screens".
    Just donate 49 Euros by buying the community subscription, and the nag screen will vanish.
    Best regards,
    Dietmar

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    Default Re: Details about the new pve-no-subscripton repository

    Quote Originally Posted by dietmar View Post
    Just donate 49 Euros by buying the community subscription, and the nag screen will vanish.
    ... for a year.

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    Default Re: Details about the new pve-no-subscripton repository

    Quote Originally Posted by riptide_wave View Post
    Maybe proxmox should have a "donation" package, so if you donate X amount, you can enter a code that just disables the popup...
    That package is called 'Community Subscription'.
    Best regards,
    Dietmar

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    Default Re: Details about the new pve-no-subscripton repository

    Quote Originally Posted by dietmar View Post
    Just donate 49 Euros by buying the community subscription, and the nag screen will vanish.
    I'd have to pay 100 euros per year because it's a 2 socket system and I'd have to pay again next year to keep the subscription going. Furthermore, that's not really a donation, it's about buying something. Normally, it should be possible for me to donate and use open source software. Since I have 4 of these, I'd have to pay 400 euros. I'm not a company and I got these servers to cut down on the costs of the VPSes I am currently paying for, so that's a bit too much for an individual.

    How about starting a fund raising campaign via donations and removing the nag screen from the community version of Proxmox VE? You can set a goal like 50000-100000 euros and let people donate. Make it clear that it's about keeping open source software open and letting users who don't really need "enterprise" support use Proxmox VE without subscriptions. I refrain from paying and using any kind of software which demands subscriptions, so I'm not getting any subscription based software. I think people would actually donate if they're clearly told this is needed. I think a lot of people would donate to keep the project going and to keep it free.
    Last edited by nopenopenope; 08-22-2013 at 07:31 PM.

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    Default Re: Details about the new pve-no-subscripton repository

    Dear nopenopenope,

    I would like to reply from a customer side.

    I also open source lover and donater. I would also be happy to live in the "gift economy" wolrd when we take all software for free and pay (donate) as much as we want or can. And we will live in such a world but this change will take a lot of time and efforts.

    As "gift economy" doesn't work yet I do my best to motivate company I work for to pay for Open Source. Company still love big poprietary VMware, I try to install Proxmox VE instead of VMware and motivate my colleagues to do the same whenever I can. And my plan worked and brought some results! Month ago or so we started another project that is internally supported by higher IT bosses and they agreed to use Proxmox VE in this case. As this is going to be an important production system it was easy to motivate them to buy a subscription. Purchasing department is currently discovering how can we made this purchase in a propriate way (I'm from Russia and our law is quite complicated). This is a small installation (two servers with one cpu socket in each) but this is an important step for Proxmox VE in our company because if we success they will install the same system in Germany and then in other subsidiaries.

    Proxmox VE is one of the best open source projects I have ever seen. It is fully open source and is developed very actively and professionally. Last update surprised me a lot at the first, because I started to think that I don't have updates anymore for my five "unproven by higher IT bosses" Proxmox VE clusters. But I found in the maillists and than in this thread that pve was renamed to pve-no-subscription, so no worries are necessary and we can trust the great Proxmox team. They "want to eat" and of cause I understand this as long as we have sources, we can use it freely and we can pay for support and futher developing.

    I would only like to say thank you to the Proxmox Team for the great job they do.

    Best regards,
    Stanislav
    Last edited by giner; 08-22-2013 at 07:55 PM.

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    Default Re: Details about the new pve-no-subscripton repository

    Quote Originally Posted by giner View Post
    Dear nopenopenope,

    I would like to reply from a customer side.

    I also open source lover and donater. I would also be happy to live in the "gift economy" when we take all software for free and pay (donate) as much as we want or can. And we would live in such a world but this change will take a lot of time and efforts.

    As "gift economy" doesn't work yet I do my best to motivate company I work for to pay for Open Source. Company still love big poprietary VMware, I try to install Proxmox VE instead of VMware and motivate my colleagues to do the same whenever I can. And may plan worked and brought some results! Month ago or so we started another project that is internally supported by higher IT bosses and they agreed to use Proxmox VE in this case. As this is going to be an important production system it was easy to motivate them to buy a subscription. Purchasing department is currently discovering how can we made this purchase in a propriate way (I'm from Russia and our law is quite complicated). This is a small installation (two servers with one cpu socket in each) but this is an important step for Proxmox VE in our company because if we success they will install the same system in Germany and then in other subsidiaries.

    Proxmox VE is one of the best open source projects I have ever seen. It is fully open source and is developed very actively and professionally. Last update surprised me a lot at the first, because I started to think that I don't have updates anymore for my five "unproven by higher IT bosses" Proxmox VE clusters. But than I found in the maillists and than in this thread that pve was renamed to pve-no-subscription, so no worries are necessary and we can trust the great Proxmox team. They "want to eat" and of cause I understand this as long as we have sources, we can use it freely and we can pay for support and futher developing.

    I would only like to say thank you to the Proxmox Team for the great job they do.

    Best regards,
    Stanislav
    I understand and I am well aware of all this. I've developed open source and I haven't been given much in exchange for it, the most I've received in exchange for making 100% open and free software was "thanks", nothing more. I've taken care to donate to software projects I've been using and I do that every time, especially when I find smaller projects and projects which need money to survive. However, I never buy subscriptions for software and I won't buy software to remove a nag screen temporarily.

    I wish you good luck and good luck with your projects.

  33. #33
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    Default Re: Details about the new pve-no-subscripton repository

    Quote Originally Posted by nopenopenope View Post
    I'd have to pay 100 euros per year because it's a 2 socket system and I'd have to pay again next year to keep the subscription going. Furthermore, that's not really a donation, it's about buying something. Normally, it should be possible for me to donate and use open source software. Since I have 4 of these, I'd have to pay 400 euros. I'm not a company and I got these servers to cut down on the costs of the VPSes I am currently paying for, so that's a bit too much for an individual.
    Yes. and if you have 1000 the amount would be 50000 - really strange kind of argumentation.

    Quote Originally Posted by nopenopenope View Post
    How about starting a fund raising campaign via donations and removing the nag screen from the community version of Proxmox VE?
    Just wanted to note that is a common pattern: You are not willing to donate anything, and you suggest that other people donate for you.
    Best regards,
    Dietmar

    Do you have already a Commercial Support Subscription? - If not, Buy now

  34. #34
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    Default Re: Details about the new pve-no-subscripton repository

    Quote Originally Posted by dietmar View Post
    You do not contribute anything anyways, so that is not really a big lost.
    Dietmar,

    I realize that emotions are running pretty high right now but you might want to remember that as an employee of Proxmox you represent them in everything you say and do. And as we seem to like to say in the US, "Everything you say can and will be used against you...." so these words may come back to haunt you. Any potential customers who might be reading this thread could be turned away by seeing that a member of the Proxmox team can display such a negative attitude publicly.

    Not a personal attack, just some unsolicited advice from someone who is considering becoming a MSP customer & possibly a reseller. I couldn't figure out how to send this in a private message so please delete this post after you've read it.

  35. #35
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    Default Re: Details about the new pve-no-subscripton repository

    nopenopenope
    Come on. Don't pay nor buy. Just install proxmox and remove that window from login if you don't like it - no one can prohibit you doing this. The product by itself is great and still free (including free of charge). All of us understood already, that you never pay for binaries and vanished pop-ups.
    here an idea:
    1. install proxmox
    2. remove the pop-up
    3. get community account if you really have a possibility to support as you write here.
    See the difference? You will not pay for vanished pop-up, as there won't be any when you will pay! (as you remove it by yourself before paying).

  36. #36
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    Default Re: Details about the new pve-no-subscripton repository

    Quote Originally Posted by oakleeman View Post
    Dietmar,

    I realize that emotions are running pretty high right now but you might want to remember that as an employee of Proxmox you represent them in everything you say and do. And as we seem to like to say in the US, "Everything you say can and will be used against you...." so these words may come back to haunt you. Any potential customers who might be reading this thread could be turned away by seeing that a member of the Proxmox team can display such a negative attitude publicly.

    Not a personal attack, just some unsolicited advice from someone who is considering becoming a MSP customer & possibly a reseller. I couldn't figure out how to send this in a private message so please delete this post after you've read it.
    I would also add that "spread a word" is also important. Let's say 5% (that's just an example, I don't know the real numbers) buy support subscription. 5% from 1000 is 50, however from 10 000 it is 500...

  37. #37
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    Default Re: Details about the new pve-no-subscripton repository

    Quote Originally Posted by dietmar View Post
    Yes. and if you have 1000 the amount would be 50000 - really strange kind of argumentation.



    Just wanted to note that is a common pattern: You are not willing to donate anything, and you suggest that other people donate for you.
    I am willing to donate ONLY if the nag screen goes away. Why would I donate knowing I will still get the nag screen? People who run that many systems should really have a support contract, not just a subscription.

  38. #38
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    Default Re: Details about the new pve-no-subscripton repository

    I couldn't upgrade my servers to 3.1 yet, so I am not sure what you're talking about.
    May I see a screenshot of this message? How often does it appear? Just after the login?
    I've no problems with it, it is just to know what to expect after the upgrade.

    Thanks

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    Default Re: Details about the new pve-no-subscripton repository

    Quote Originally Posted by Shazan View Post
    May I see a screenshot of this message? How often does it appear? Just after the login?
    After login, just a simple dialog, one click to close.
    Best regards,
    Dietmar

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    Default Re: Details about the new pve-no-subscripton repository

    Quote Originally Posted by oakleeman View Post
    Any potential customers who might be reading this thread could be turned away by seeing that a member of the Proxmox team can display such a negative attitude publicly.
    Thanks for that hint, but I see the negative attitude on the other side.
    Best regards,
    Dietmar

    Do you have already a Commercial Support Subscription? - If not, Buy now

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    Default Re: Details about the new pve-no-subscripton repository

    Quote Originally Posted by dietmar View Post
    Thanks for that hint, but I see the negative attitude on the other side.
    I'm quite sure many open source advocates will see it the other way around. Nag-screens does not sound well in anyones ears, even for free software. Especially for someone considering what software to choose.

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    Default Re: Details about the new pve-no-subscripton repository

    Quote Originally Posted by tmikaeld View Post
    I'm quite sure many open source advocates will see it the other way around.
    The opposite is the case. Open source give you the power and rights to do what you want.
    Best regards,
    Dietmar

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    Default Re: Details about the new pve-no-subscripton repository

    Quote Originally Posted by dietmar View Post
    The opposite is the case. Open source give you the power and rights to do what you want.
    True, as long as you don't limit freedom.

    I am not arguing that you don't follow Open source guidelines, because you do follow them.

    Just wanted to add that not everyone will like the nag-screen and that it might affect sales.

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    Default Re: Details about the new pve-no-subscripton repository

    Quote Originally Posted by dietmar View Post
    The opposite is the case. Open source give you the power and rights to do what you want.
    I disagree, a lawyer would recommend against that very modification which is being discussed in this context.

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    Default Re: Details about the new pve-no-subscripton repository

    Quote Originally Posted by nopenopenope View Post
    I disagree, a lawyer would recommend against that very modification which is being discussed in this context.
    Hm, you may be right, because the subscription is used in a commercial context.

    Another software we use is group-office and they do load all commercial modules seperate from the open source part of the system.

  46. #46
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    Default Re: Details about the new pve-no-subscripton repository

    Again, our Software is licensed under AGPLv3.
    Best regards,
    Dietmar

    Do you have already a Commercial Support Subscription? - If not, Buy now

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    Default Re: Details about the new pve-no-subscripton repository

    I'm from the US, I take no offense of what Dietmar said.

    oakleeman, the rest of this is slightly inspired by your comment but not a response to your comment.

    What I am offended by are people who expect everything for free but want to give nothing in return.
    Seeing commants like "well if you remove nag screen I will donate" is disengenious, if that were true then a donation would have happened before this nag screen showed up.
    All this complaining about the nag screen, took me one minute to figure out how to disable it, it IS open-source making that possible and anyone is free to do so.
    If someone has so much time to make post after post complaining about a feature they do not like but can not take 5 minutes to go remove said feature then it becomes obvious that they are only here to annoy and harass this community.

    Anyone in this community who did not see some sort of change comming or did not see that the Proxmox team was dropping every hint possible that they need more funding must have not been paying attention or simply did not care.
    They put up a sticky in the forum well over a year ago:
    http://forum.proxmox.com/threads/924...should-buy-one

    They started promoting the subscriptions in their signatures:
    "Do you have already a Commercial Support Subscription? - If not, Buy now"

    The only thing I think they have done wrong is not taking the time to spell out these changes before they were rolled out.
    They had dropped plenty of hints but nothing really solid.
    Upset because they fumbled the communications, OK you have a valid point.
    Upset because you do not get free access to the new repo or that removing the nag screen is beyonbd your abilities then your expectations are too high.

    The company I work for relies on Proxmox for a large portion of our operations, not supporting it is simply foolish.
    We purchased our subscription yesterday, the price drop is what allowed me to get this approved.

    I have spent countless hours helping complete strangers in these forums, tracking down bugs for the benefit of all, submitting the occasional tiny patch and now am spending money on a subscription to help support this project.
    The behaviour of some people complaining that they do not get free this and free that is offensive.
    If it bothers someone so much they want to leave, I wish them luck on their adventure.
    Just stop crapping all over this community of great people who have provided and will continue to provide so much help and great software to anyone for free.

  48. #48
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    Default Re: Details about the new pve-no-subscripton repository

    Well then it's fine, because it can be used commercially.

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    Default Re: Details about the new pve-no-subscripton repository

    Quote Originally Posted by dietmar View Post
    Again, our Software is licensed under AGPLv3.
    A lawyer will say that it's considered cracking and illegal, as are all modifications which alter notifications concerning registration, trials and notifications to buy the software. Since you're not distributing it with a notice permitting the removal of that particular bit, I doubt anyone who wants to use it without a subscription would use it in any other place than at home.

    Given that it's a very common practice to dual license AGPL software in Europe, a lawyer could also say that the binary distribution can be considered a different thing than the open source code on which it's based.
    It's the same thing as with software which is available under 2 licenses and you can get the community version or the paid commercial version which has some more fixes & has gone through more testing.

    Why don't we stop this bs discussion where we try to justify a nag screen by saying that the software is licensed under the AGPLv3?

  50. #50
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    Default Re: Details about the new pve-no-subscripton repository

    Quote Originally Posted by e100 View Post
    I'm from the US, I take no offense of what Dietmar said.

    oakleeman, the rest of this is slightly inspired by your comment but not a response to your comment.

    What I am offended by are people who expect everything for free but want to give nothing in return.
    Seeing commants like "well if you remove nag screen I will donate" is disengenious, if that were true then a donation would have happened before this nag screen showed up.
    All this complaining about the nag screen, took me one minute to figure out how to disable it, it IS open-source making that possible and anyone is free to do so.
    If someone has so much time to make post after post complaining about a feature they do not like but can not take 5 minutes to go remove said feature then it becomes obvious that they are only here to annoy and harass this community.

    Anyone in this community who did not see some sort of change comming or did not see that the Proxmox team was dropping every hint possible that they need more funding must have not been paying attention or simply did not care.
    They put up a sticky in the forum well over a year ago:
    http://forum.proxmox.com/threads/924...should-buy-one

    They started promoting the subscriptions in their signatures:
    "Do you have already a Commercial Support Subscription? - If not, Buy now"

    The only thing I think they have done wrong is not taking the time to spell out these changes before they were rolled out.
    They had dropped plenty of hints but nothing really solid.
    Upset because they fumbled the communications, OK you have a valid point.
    Upset because you do not get free access to the new repo or that removing the nag screen is beyonbd your abilities then your expectations are too high.

    The company I work for relies on Proxmox for a large portion of our operations, not supporting it is simply foolish.
    We purchased our subscription yesterday, the price drop is what allowed me to get this approved.

    I have spent countless hours helping complete strangers in these forums, tracking down bugs for the benefit of all, submitting the occasional tiny patch and now am spending money on a subscription to help support this project.
    The behaviour of some people complaining that they do not get free this and free that is offensive.
    If it bothers someone so much they want to leave, I wish them luck on their adventure.
    Just stop crapping all over this community of great people who have provided and will continue to provide so much help and great software to anyone for free.
    I agree with you, and i'm not that annoyed by the nag-screen, it is only once per login!

    The only worry i have is that it will get limited step by step by step until it is no longer open source software but crippleware until you pay for it.

    Considering the amount of time people invest in setting up a proxmox cluster, it causes people to worry because any drastic change may cost more money than expected. And if the cost is too high, some users might be forced to move and thus adding additional costs. For example, the not-for-profit users. Maybe proxmox could add a special subscription for that?

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